Boy have I got questions

[jimmy82]

Well first things first, I have only been shooting ML for about 5 years now. The army takes a lot of time and my guns are with my parents in another state. Heck, I'm still on my first box of balls. I believe I am fairly well kitted out. Replaced my brass nipple with one that i believe is iron or steel (the brass only lasted a few shots before it was deformed to the point where the cap wouldn't go on), a wrench and pick, a short starter. I use charge containers with pre-measured amounts of powder and follow what I believe is a good system for cleaning. I use hot soap and water and all that good stuff. I only use "normal" gun oil for long periods of storage and when ever I go to shoot I make sure I clean it all out before I head out to the fields.

My first question is about my rifle itself. I recieved it as a gift from my grandfather who to be honest knows next to nothing about guns except .50 cal machine guns and M1 Garands. It is a .45 cal TC Hawken style. I have looked all over the TC site numerous times since I got the gun and can find nothing about them selling a .45, I was however able to find a booklet on recommended and factory max charges with different types of rounds. So far I haven't gone above 85 grains with a .440 round ball and patch. Here in lies my question. Does anybody have experience with a .45 TC? Or TC for that matter, what are common problems or a do and don't list? I wouldn't mind a little history on the style either, any speculations about why TC would stop selling the .45.

My second question involves loading. The guy who taught me how to shoot ML commented that we were having an unusually hard time ramming the ball down (with pre-lubed and hand lubed patches). We tried testing Hornady .38 cal sabot's but they were near impossible to get down the barrel and it damaged the sabot casing causing the rounds to tumble in less then 50 yards. Needless to say I shot very few of them and have stuck with my round balls ever since. But is it common for new guns or certain types of guns to be harder to load then others? I've heard that the ML field is not as standardized as the high power smokeless field is which can account for such a situation to happen but I know nothing about the validity of that statement. We're talking thousandths of an inch but my instructor was at a loss for a sound reason.

My final question for the night (past midnight in Iraq :wink I have a difficult time getting powder in to the channel. When I first started shooting I would have missfires, I would take the nipple off and notice that there was no powder in the channel. Even after careful cleaning and preparation it would still take a few whacks on the side of my rifle to get the powder to fall into the channel and it wasn't a guarantee that it went in. I only use my ML for hunting and the first shot is critical cause it might be my only shot. I tried "magnum" caps but they didn't help. Finally I resorted to dropping a tiny pinch of fff (or is it ffff? this shows how much i get to shoot my ML) powder into the channel and then screwing the nipple back on. I haven't had a single misfire since but I fear a blowout or over pressuring the channel and damaging my rifle. Plus if I want to do a quick reload then my next shot might or might not go off. Do I need to go to a gun smith and have my channel expanded a little? Or are there steps I can take while loading or something to improve flow of powder into the channel? Thanks in advance for any and all help. The rest of my circle of hunting buddies that use black powder use inlines :nono: and they are no help to me in these areas.

 

[Headhunter]

TC/45's are good to go, I have had one for almost 30 years now. My favorite load is the Hornady .440's and 40-60 grains of FFFG Goex. TC Prelubed patches and CCI #11 caps. I have found in my 45, 70 grains of powder and above makes TOO much fouling, but some guys shoot 70 grains all the time. That is just the nature of the beast. The more you shoot it, the easier it will get to load.

Try loading 40 grains and shoot the rest of your bullets. I bet you it will get better.

Forget about the sabot stuff. That is for your buddies.

As for the "Pop and no Kick". The Easiest way to keep that from happening is popping a couple caps thru your rifle before you load it. This will clear out any oils that lag around your nipple and the Channel you discribe.

When loaded, you won't see any powder in this channel.

Keep your nipple clean and dry is what it is all about. That rifle of yours will go off every time.

Good luck and hurry home.

Headhunter
AKA SFC Woods

 

[boar]

If gun was used before you it might have some crud in breach?. Might use a breach scraper on it. Only thing else, but shouldn"t be if you pump water thru nipple is somthing in fire channel.My buddy bought a TC Hawken .45 flinter from Log Cabin and I shot it and it was a real good shooter. I shoot 40grs 3fff in my 45's for grhogs and for deer 70grs.RB. Might try a bore light. Dilly

 

[grant]

Before you load the first time pop off a couple of caps. Hold the barrel down at the ground close to some loose dirt or stray leaves. You should see the dirt(or leaf) blow away from the barrel when you pop a cap. This proves the channel is clear. When you load make sure that the hammer is at half-cock. As you ram the ball down the barrel air will go out through the nipple and some fine particles of powder will go into the channel. You should then have good ignition. By the way if air has nowhere to go when you attempt to ram the ball(or sabot), it will be very difficult to ram. If you clean between shoots, pop another cap if you want to make sure the channel is clear.

 

[Zonie]

TC quit making the Hawken in .45 caliber a number of years ago because they weren't selling well.
In fact, many of the companies who used to offer .45s have dropped them due to poor sales.

Like headhunter said, 80 grains in a .45 is a pretty hot load. By dropping down to 70 grains the fouling may be reduced and it should still be developing around 1780 FPS muzzle velocity.

Historically I believe the TC Hawken was first made around 1971. At least in the book "BLACK POWDER DIGEST" edited by Toby Bridges c1972 there is an article called "RETURN OF THE HAWKEN" which describes it as being a new gun.

The name "Hawken" was apparently selected primarily as a sales gimmick. About the only similarity between the TC and a real Hawken is the fact that it is a half stock side lock rifle that uses a breech plug with the nipple going directly into it rather a side mounted drum like many of the muzzleloaders made in the early 70's did.
The TC is very similar to some of the rifles that were made in California in the 1850s.

The TC Hawken barrel has a 1:48 twist which was designed for shooting both round balls and slugs. It wasn't designed for shooting sabots which usually require a faster twist to stabilize the heavy bullets used in them.
As far as shooting round balls is concerned, the TC barrel has rather shallow rifleing grooves (.005) so it can shoot Maxi Bullets and other solid lead slugs. These shallow grooves make it necessary to use a tight patch/ball combination with hot powder loads to get the accuracy the gun is capable of delivering.

It sounds like your guns bore may be on the tight side from your loading description but generally speaking a .440 diameter ball with a lubed .015 patch should work well in it.
If it continues to be hard to load try using a thinner .010 thick patch but collect the shot patches. If they show signs of being burned thru where the ball meets the bore, they won't give you good accuracy.

You mentioned that you use a gun oil to protect the gun when it is not in use. While this is ok, if you stored the gun muzzle up, this oil will end up in the firing channel (or flame channel). If it does, it will contaminate the powder that starts to enter it while your loading. This contaminated powder will not only not ignite easily but it will block off the channel and prevent the remaining loose powder from being blown back towards the nipple.
Speaking of powder being blown back towards the nipple when you load, make sure the nipple is not capped and that the hammer is at the "half cock" position. (Yes, TC's half cock position is very low, just above the end of the nipple. That is normal.) If the hammer is down on the nipple it will block off the hole and prevent the blast of air under the ball from blowing the powder back thru the flame channel towards the base of the nipple. As you found, tapping the side of the stock prior to ramming the ball also helps with this.

Putting some powder under the nipple to assure a positive first shot is a excellent idea if your hunting and, no, you cannot damage your gun due to an overload by doing this.
If you make sure the nipple is unplugged and the hammer is at half cock when you load your next shot you should not have to add powder under the nipple for your second shot.

If you are using Pyrodex or one of the other synthetic powders you should use the magnum caps. If your using real black powder the standard #11 caps should work every time.

Generally speaking, the TC Hawken is the only Traditional muzzleloader made in the USA.
They have a 100 percent guarantee that never runs out and TC has a reputation for honoring it without question.
They are a well built gun and are always considered to be among the best available.

Hope this helps answer your questions and WELCOME TO THE FORUM and MANY THANKS FOR SERVING YOUR COUNTRY.
zonie

 

[arquebus]

In addition to popping 2-3 caps before you load (& after each cleaning)I would also recommend wiping the bore & breach with a alcohol (Isopropyl not Wild Turkey) soaked patch. The alcohol will take any remaining oils, etc. out of the gun & then evaporate leaving everything clean & dry.....you shouldn't have any more ignition problems.
As mentioned in a prior reply, you normally shouldn't see any powder when you remove the nipple on a loaded gun.....the flash channel is generally too small. However putting a small amount of powder under the nipple, as you have been doing, will often help you when you eventually dry-ball (forgetting the powder when loading) a round. There's enough energy in that small amount of powder to drive a patched ball out of the barrel.

 

[horsesoldier03]

Sounds like you have a nice gun. Best thing I can tell you is to make sure you remove the nipple after you fire each time and clean it just like you clean the barrel. Take a pipe cleaner and push it through the channel into the breech area. You may try to dry patch it before you take it out each time. Also, judging from your comments on being into ML for 5 yrs and still on your first box of balls I have to wonder if your powder might be old or possibly it has gotten damp during storage. Hope you stay safe in Iraq and come home safe so that you can take up the ML again soon.

 

[Zonie]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think horsesoldier03 was meaning
"...make sure you remove the nipple after your done shooting each time..." instead of
"make sure you remove the nipple after you fire each time...".

zonie

 

[jimmy82]

Thanks for the great advise guys. And thank you for the warm welcome. Until recently I lived in the barracks and it is quite the hassle to store privately owned firearms in a government arms room (they frown on keeping them in your barracks room :yakyak: )so I didn't even bother and left my stuff with my parents. But now I'm married and have a house so I hope to get a lot more trigger time then in years past. Old powder is a possibility, I haven't bought fresh stuff in quite some time. But I was having these issues from the get go. I have no idea how old the gun is or any prior owner info. I think my grandpa bought it at a pawnshop. The gun is in great shape though and I believe that it was probably one of the last .45's produced by TC. I wonder if there is a serial number tracker to get an idea of production date. Looked up an old Coronet that way one time.

It'll actually be 2 years in December since the last time I shot (just realized that, i remember it like it was yesterday though). It's amazing how fast life can get at times. But when I get the chance I love shooting it. I got hooked on the Hawken from watching Jeremiah Johnson one to many times, and I can't wait to get out of the sand box and back home to get shooting again.

 

[Zonie]

Sorry to have to tell you that the older TC's can't be dated by serial numbers.
Their records were destroyed in a fire a while back.

If you can give us the serial number maybe some of our members will have something similar and know when they bought it.
I wouldn't recommend giving the whole number (although I've never figured out why) so giving something like 31XX or 659XX would be good enough.
The number might also have a "K" in it. If it does, the gun was built from a kit.

Your right about how fast life whizzes by. That's why folks need to get out and shoot their guns as often as they can. :grin:

zonie

 

[oldwolf]

I have a T/C Renegade that I built from a kit back in 1992. The serial number is 35xxxx. If T/C had different preliminary numbers for their models then this won’t help you date yours. Some one else can chime in and set us straight on that.

I am pretty sure the sidelocks are all the same on their guns though. When I got mine I decided to install a T/C “hot-shot” nipple that basically has a wider flame channel for higher reliability with ignition. I have never had any nipple problems with mine, still using the same Hot-Shot I bought back in 1992. So, a different nipple design is something else to consider too.

This heat treated stainless steel nipple will provide a more even and consistent flow of pressurized gases from the nipple into the ignition chamber. They will virtually eliminate hammer blow back by venting excessive gases through the side ports. (Not recommended for under hammer rifles or Cap & Ball Revolvers).

TCG7075 Hot Shot® Nipple (1/4 x 28 Thread) for most T/C Cap Lock rifles (Except T/C Scout, Cherokee & Seneca).

The other thing that comes to mind with the tightness of your barrel is the size of the ball you are using and the thickness of the patch also. From my T/C manual I read .440" balls and .015" patches are recommended.

A dirty or corroded barrel will also lend it self to feeling tight. But I think I read above that you mentioned the barrel is clean and in good condition. So this may not be your problem.

Good luck with the rifle.

What do you do in Iraq?

 

[horsesoldier03]

:hatsoff: Thanks for clarifying my poor usage of the English Language Zonie! That was exactly what I meant. Guess I didnt read it good before I clicked on the button.

 

[jimmy82]

Well I can't get into specifics on what I do but I can tell you I am Airborne Infantry in the 82nd.

That actually is the nipple I have. I don't know why the gun would come with a brass nipple. It literally only took ten hammer falls before the brass nipple was useless.

I want to say that I have a 4 digit serial number that is along the lines of 14xx (maybe 41xx). But it has been a while since I've seen it and I could be totally wrong. I do know that it doesn't have a K (all I remember is numbers) so it isn't a kit gun.

As for the loading it did get "slightly" better over time. I'm using a .010 prelubed patch (can't remember the brand) but it still seems to hang up going down. The best way I can describe it is that it isn't a smooth motion. I think that if it was owned before me that who ever had it just didn't use it much for what ever reason and it still needs to be broke in. When I got the gun it was almost like new. But it didn't come in a T/C box, it had no manual or anything else for that matter.

It could also be a lube issue, haven't tried any other types of patches or lubes since i learned to shoot it so maybe now that it's had a few more rounds through it since then a different lube might make all the difference.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

running some alcohol down the bore and thru the flash channel will help as stated above. also you might use a pipe cleaner to run into the breech area to check for any crud build-up. that's what I use and also a good nipple.

 

[oldwolf]

I should have known better to ask you what you do in Iraq. :redface:

Anyway, I live in Raleigh, not to far from Fort Bragg, where you probably visit now and then. :grin:

 

[John Taylor]

Welcome aboard. Also want to thank you for serving our country.
I have been shooting BP for more years than I want to tell. I ran into the same problems when first starting out. Oil and crud in the flame channel are the first thing to look for. If your having problems with the ball not going down smoothly then there may be a problem with the bore. If it was put away without proper cleaning there may be some pitting in the bore. Do you feel any tight spots or hangups with a cleaning patch while cleaning? There are several things on the market to polish a rough bore but sometimes a lot of shooting will do the same thing. I have used steel wool on real bad bores to get them smooth enough to get a ball down. It takes about 100 shots to break in a new barrel. If it still has problems after break in I start thinking rebore or new barrel. I started shooting at a time when there were some real junk rifles on the market we use to joke about the rifling ( or lack of it )in some of the cheep guns on the market. To try learning on a $39 rifle sold under the name Juker ( pronounced junker I think ) was a real challenge.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

All really good advice here! Only thing to add is that when a friend of mine comes up to me with a hawken-style gun with a misfire problem, in addition to all of the above great posts, I teach one thing more: Just after pouring in the powder and rapping the side of the barrel a few times, I tap the buttstock on the ground once or twice to settle the charge into the flash channel. Sometimes this advice works so well that you don't have to take-off the nipple to put a few grains of powder under the nipple & then screw the nipple back onto the rifle :wink: .

A small tap on the ground is all that it takes to settle the charge in a finicky gun, then use a regular cap like Zonie said to do!

And once again, THANK YOU for defending our freedom! God's speed on the trip home and remember this: DO IT TO THEM BEFORE THEY DO IT TO YOU OR US!!! Stay low and hang tuff!

Dave