Bought my first kit from TOTW & lots of questions!

[windsor]

Hello all,

I have always wanted to build one of my own flint longrifles, so I purchased a kit from Track of the Wolf. It's an Isaac Haines in 54. I have done lots of reading in 'Recreating the American Longrifle and The Gunsmith of Grenville County'. Both are excellent books and I have learned a lot.

I bought a kit because I figured most of the hard work would be done for me and I'm sure it has in some respects. I got the kit tonight and nearly everything is inlet already. To the naked eye, the barrel channel looks perfect and the stock is already a terrific shape. Here's a Link to the kit

Anyway, to make things easier on myself, I opted to have the sights and barrel lugs and breech plug installed. The work looks superb.

I guess where I'm stuck is where should I begin? I think the fact that this is already totally pre-inlet, etc. that it may put things in a different order. Normally, I would think you'd make sure the barrel fits first. However, the breech plug is already installed. I'm not sure I could remove it and do as good a job as they did re-installing it. As you can see in my pictures, the breech plug / tang area has not been routed out. Any tips? With a blank, you can always make up for something somewhat off, but with a fully formed stock, you've really got to get it right.

Second question... I got a Jim Chambers lock for it. For the most part, it seems like it is fitting well, but is askew a bit. I will definitely have to fit it in. Only issue is that they've already pre-inlet the side plate, so if I don't get the lock inletted perfectly then the sideplate will be way off! Aah!!

Anyway, I hope some of this makes sense. Here are some pics to help show what I'm describing. Any insight for a gun building newbie would be greatly appreciated!

Breech and barrel fitting:

Lock:

Sideplate:

Breech area in stock:

:hatsoff:

 

[rabjr]

Winsor,

You still need to build it in the right order. You have two very good books there to go by. Everything is not "totally inletted" it's more 95 to 98% inletted, you still have to fit the parts. Good luck and have fun! :thumbsup:

 

[Birddog6]

Basically...............

1: Inlet the lock 90 % of the way. It is preinlet & it is going where they puit it regardless of what you may want.
2: Inlet barrel (less breechplug) to the stock to the desired place. (You have to have the lock inlet on a precarve to KNOW where to put the barrel & position the vent)
3: Install breechplug, bend tang & taper it & inlet tang area .
4: Inlet the underlugs & pin the barrel.
5: Inlet the trigger & T/guard & drill & bolt the tang down.
6. Set the LOP & cut stock to desired LOP & install buttplate.
7: Do the RR pipes, entrypipe & nosecap.

8: Finish inletting the lock til it is flush with the barrel, drill/tap/install the vent. Go take it for a test run. Clean off the bottom of the sights & superglue them to the barrel.

9: Cut down the excess wood off the rifle. Cut the lock panels down to where they look right & etc.

10: Clean it all up & finish it.

:thumbsup:

 

[bioprof]

Windsor,

I'm sure there are members here that are more experienced and qualified to give advice than I, but I have discovered a few things from putting together three of the "kits" from TOW.

When building from a blank, you always intlet the barrel and breech plug first, then position the lock based on the location of the front end of the breech plug. With a precarved stock, you have to do things a little bit differently. Since the lock is mostly already inlet, you have to position the barrel relative to the location of the lock. The advice that was given to me is to fit the lock part way in first, then turn the barrel around and inlet the muzzle end of the barrel into the breech area. You will probably need to inlet the barrel further back into the breech area than you think you will so that your touch hole doesn't end up in the breech plug. Once you get the barrel inlet where you want it, turn it around and inlet the breech plug and tang. If you don't get the barrel inlet far enough back, you may have to file a notch in the breech plug to form a channel for the flash to get to the main charge. This isn't considered to be a big deal by most builders as it apparently was done on a lot of the originals. Some builders don't like doing this though as it may be harder to scrape out the fouling from the notch in the breech plug. Just go slow, enjoy the process, and ask lots of questions.

 

[Cherokee]

I have the same kit from Track but a lefty.
My lock dropped right in but it didnt have any inletting done for the sideplate yet.
This kit is a lot further along than most of the others.
The buttlate is the big thing that makes it a pleasure with it mostly cut to fit.
Track screwed my whole order up.
I ordered a B weight lefty stock. They shipped it and didnt put enough packaging in the box and the muzzle end snagged the cardboard a few times in transit and splintered the end.
About three months goes by waitng and them wanting to send me a premo for full price they had in stock and me saying no. I get my stock. Well it was a C weight! So I bought a C weight barrel instead of waiting another three months.
Now I buy a lot of my small parts from Muzzleloaders builders supply.
There seems to be a market not filled out there for kits with almost all of the inletting done. IM not talking about fitting.
As far as your kit goes take your time inletting that tang and its okay to cheat with a few power tools.

Have fun :thumbsup:

 

[Vaino]

Kit buyers sure are lucky to receive your advice on assembling kits, but where do you get the patience to offer this advice time after time? Have only assembled a few kits and usually build from "scratch" and judging from the questions asre kit assembling, there seems to be a lot of "how to" info on scratch building but a lot less on assembling kits. It would behoove the suppliers of kits to include just a single sheet outlining the enumerated steps for assembling their kits just as you have so generously offered.....Fred

 

[Birddog6]

Yes, that would be benificial for them. When I buy & build a precarve I usually get it from Dunlaps as I like dealing with them, but I have built allot of Tracks parts sets also so the same proceedure applies. This was brought up a month or so ago so I saved it this time, course like most things I save I could not find it ! ARGH ! :cursing: But anyway, this is the proceedure I usually do when I build one.

Inlet the lock in the started inlet as that is the only place it will go, where he has them cut them in.

Remove the breechplug, (Make sure it has a Index mark on the bottom flat to breechplug. If it doesn have a index mark there, take a small chisel & make one or cut one with a graver) Lay the plug on the flat the lock is going to be against & scribe a line across the face of the plug on that flat. Now lay the vent or drum on there where ya want it on the barrel & mark the center of the vent, now make a scribe line parallel with the other line from your vent center mark.

Now put the lock in the inlet, make a scribe line in the bottom of the flashpan going toward the barrel. Chuck the lock area in a vice with the stock horizontal & the muzzle end supported, lay a rule or popsickle stick across the wood at the muzzle to hold the barrel out of the channel. Lay the barrel on top of the stick at the muzzle & at the top of the tang area & line up the vent scribe & the pan scribe. Now mark the the wood at the end of the barrel on top of the tang & that will show you how much wood to remove to get the barrel back to where ya need it.

Start cutting that out & work it down & then work the barrel down from breech out as you go. Don't wory about the slight twists or curves in the forestock wood, it will all work out. Just look at each side & make them the same going out & when ya get to the muzzle turn it to where ya need it & inlet it.

On the barrel, you now have two parallel lines on it (breech end & vent center) Now scribe a center line thru the vent center parallel with the barrel flat, so how you have a plus for the vent center. On the top right L of that plus is where your vent hole will be & also that horizontal line is where you want the top of the flashpan to be.
I take a punch & put a centerpunch dot there now so I can easily reference it)


So, when inletting the barrel, take the barrel down to where the top edge of the flashpan is even with the horizontal vent center line (or dot) on the barrel. (This is why ya need the lock inletted, as you can move the barrel where ya want it, ya cannot move the lock as the inlet is where he inlet it.)

Get the barrel fully inletted. Then put the breechplug back in & lay it back on the stock to just like at the beginning, but now the breechplug is holding the rear of the barrel up at the tang & the stick on the muzzle end. On a side view look at the tang vs tang wood curvature. Bend the tang in a vice to get the curvature the same. (You need to get the tang bent Before ya inlet it, otherwise when you inlet it & then bend it the inlet will be too large & you will have a gap at the end of the tang. Insure the Top (outside showing) of the tang is larger than the inside of the tang (down in the stock) Nutherwords it will have a wedge effect going down in the stock, on the sides of the tang & slightly on the end of it also. Put the barrel back on top of the stock & mark the bottom of the breechplug outline on the wood & start cutting the wood at the tang to inlet the bottom of it. When ya get it down to the actual tang flat part, now take a real sharp pencil & make a tight scribe around the tang or take a exacto knife & scribe a line around it, remove barrel, wet your thumb & rub the line & it should show. Now start cutting out the tang wood & do Not cut the line, stay inside it. Blacken the tang & keep going down to where ya have the barrel back to where the flashpan line align again. Eventually you will be cutting that line & it is important you take care there & not overcut it.

Be patient, you are gonna have that barrel in & out of the stock ? 200 ? times while inletting it. If the barrel gets stuck, you turn the rifle over, hold it bout 12" from the carpeted floor & left hand supporting the muzzle up, right hand under the lock area & bump the buttstock on the floor til the barrel dislodges, while holding the muzzle end up. Be careful on the forestock, if it swamped barrel so the barrel slides AWAY from the muzzle out of the wedge, Not towards ya. Don't worry about breaking the wrist, if it breaks that easy if was a bad wrist anyway & now is the time to break it..... (no joke) It should take all the ins & outs you want, as if it breaks that easy you WILL break it later & no use building one in a stock with a major flaw like that.

Once ya get it all in & it is all even, fitted & square, then ya can lay it on it's side & line up & mark your RR pipes & underlugs to insure they don't interfere with each other. Do the underlugs next. Get them in & inletted, then finish inletting the lock & get it in, flat to the barrel & bolted in. Then inlet the trigger, then drill the tang & bolt the tang to the tigger. Then triggerguard or buttplate, then RR pipes, then Muzzlecap, etc. Do the sights last as you will be hitting them all the time & they are just in the way til the very end.

If I missed something, please someone chime in.

Good luck.

Keith

 

[Raynor]

You will need to pull the breech plug to finish the barrel channel. :winking:

 

[dlocke]

Windsor, you may want to pull that breechplug to make sure everything is kosher and check the seating yourself with some prussian blue. It is not really that hard. Get your self a big (12" or better) adjustable wrench and clamp your barrel in your vise with leather to protect the steel. You can use some brass shim stock to likewise protect your breechplug from the wrench. When you are satisfied that the fit is perfect, hold your breechplug alongside the rear of your barrel and scribe (on the outside and on the flat where the vent will go) where the plug ends for reference. Put some anti-seize goop or choke-tube lube on the threads and tighten her back up.
Have fun with your kit. I got a new Track kit Monday, but I didn't get the pre-inlet lock mortise or gunsmithing work.
DJL

 

[Birddog6]

Windsor,
The advice that was given to me is to fit the lock part way in first, then turn the barrel around and inlet the muzzle end of the barrel into the breech area. You will probably need to inlet the barrel further back into the breech area than you think you will so that your touch hole doesn't end up in the breech plug. Once you get the barrel inlet where you want it, turn it around and inlet the breech plug and tang.

Everyone does them differently............. But I do question why you would inlet the muzzle end in the breech of the stock, when you know it is going to have to be all reinlet again for the breech end of the barrel, to acquire proper vent liner position.

Why not do the breech end the first time to the proper depth to align the vent & be done with it ? :hmm:

 

[Slenk]

Windsor,
The advice that was given to me is to fit the lock part way in first, then turn the barrel around and inlet the muzzle end of the barrel into the breech area. You will probably need to inlet the barrel further back into the breech area than you think you will so that your touch hole doesn't end up in the breech plug. Once you get the barrel inlet where you want it, turn it around and inlet the breech plug and tang.

Everyone does them differently............. But I do question why you would inlet the muzzle end in the breech of the stock, when you know it is going to have to be all reinlet again for the breech end of the barrel, to acquire proper vent liner position.

Why not do the breech end the first time to the proper depth to align the vent & be done with it ? :hmm:

you can't turn the barrel to inlet if it's a swamped barrel , only can do this on straight barrels.

 

[Welchman]

Over the years I’ve put together a couple of kits both of those stocks were not inletted. The first one a KY/Penn and my 2nd one a Hawken turned out ok but not exceptional. I have three different (good) books on rifle building but last year I purchased a Type C Trade gun from Track but then I ordered from Log Cabin Sport Shop in Lodi, Ohio the DVD. This DVD is everything anyone needs to put together a kit. I highly recommend it. If I had a choice between a book and a DVD I’d take the DVD. My advice to you is to think things out and measure, measure and measure before inletting drilling etc.

BUILDING KENTUCKY RIFLES FROM KITS, VOL I & VOL II, by Ron Ehlert

Learn from a master. A comprehensive guide to assembling flintlock rifles from a kit. On these DVDs, Ron covers an introduction to building, plus installation of the breech plug, trigger plate, lock inletting, barrel tennons, side plate, butt plate, both single and double-set triggers and the trigger guard. Ron continues his flintlock project with the installation of ramrod thimbles and end cap, touch hole, sights, forestock moldings, inlays, and both brass or wooden patch boxes. He continues with carving, stock staining, bluing and browning. Includes a short section on the percussion lock for those of you who do not want to try flint at this time. 3 Disc Set. Running time 9 hours.


Price: US$ 45.00

[url] http://www.logcabinonline.com/[/url]

Welchman

 

[Birddog6]

Thought of that & also thought someone would come back with that reason, but even at that, back to my original question.

Why do it twice ? You have to take the breechplug out several times building a rifle anyway, why not debreech it & inlet the barrel in one time to the correct vent position & be done with it ? Why would you inlet it & take all of that care to get it right & no overcuts & etc, then take it out, turn it around & do it all over again on the same rifle ?

 

[bioprof]

Oops, sorry. I was thinking of a straight barrel rather than a swamped barrel. A swamped barrel is a whole different story.

 

[Ed Wenger]

Windsor... Are you confused yet? Lots of good advice, thought I'd add mine for what it's worth. I usually inlet the lock first because it's already 98% there. Then I'd suggest taking out the breach plug, you don't have to, but it really helps. With the plug out, you can see how far it fits into the barrel. That's important because later, when you drill the vent hole, it's best to miss the plug. You can mark where the face of the plug goes on the side of the barrel.

Next, inlet the barrel making sure the plug mark on the side of the barrel is ok with where the vent hole will be. If it's not, you can move the barrel back, even if it's swamped. Doesn't take much anyway.

Next would be the tang. You can do that on it's own or screw it back into the barrel. Be sure to file a slight bevel on the tang so you get a nice, tight wood to metal fit. I personally like to inlet the tang with it attached to the barrel.

Lots of other good advice on sequence that I would just be repeating...

I usually drill the holes for the lock and side plate from the lock side, about 3/4 of the way through. Then come back from the side plate side to meet. They will, and it doesn't matter if there off a little. I find that takes care of the "off center holes on the side plate" problems. A bigger problem is trying to miss the ram rod channel and or barrel....

I've built several of TOW's "kits" and there's a fairly steep learning curve. Just take your time and ask the good folks here for help when you feel you need it, and you'll do fine. It's a wonderful experience that you will throughly enjoy!
Ed

 

[tnlonghunter]

Lots of great advice here, so I'm not sure how much this will add, but:

I built a Chamber's York rifle, and when I inlet the tang and breach, I acutally had to inlet it about 1/4" further back than the precarved barrel channel was cut for. The pan location on the lock was going to put my touchhole right on the breach plug threads. So it turned out that the best order was to do the lock and then the barrel, making sure they're good and snug against each other. Good luck!

 

[Birddog6]

And that is precisely why you do the lock first, barrel second, and tang third...........
On almost every precarve I have seen you have to move the barrel back just a tad. And this is OK an not unusual. Depending on the style of rifle, lock, barrel, etc. this is a variable...... Some only go 1/16". Others I have seen go back 1/4". Now any more than 1/4" you best be concerned where the rear lock bolt is going thru as you may be into the barrel to go back any more........ :hmm:

 

[windsor]

Well everyone, thank you so much for all of your advice! Now I'll be able to go into this with a lot more confidence and know-how.

I think it may be a good idea to remove the breech plug and see where things stand. Are there any precautionary tips for this? I know there probably are in the books that I have, but they're at home and I'm at work.

Thanks again everyone. My hat's off to ya! :hatsoff:

 

[Birddog6]

Right off the bat the first thing I would do is go to the flea parket & buy a elchepo 15" Cresent wrench & grind the jaws to fit the taper on the breechplug so you don't bugger up the tang. Cost ya $15. or so but it is worth it & ya don't have to be so danged careful. Don't let the jaws of the wrench go up quite to the top edge of the tang as if ya do it will make a indentation & then ya have to straighten that all up.

Sencond thing ya need is a big-a$$ vice & allot of table, as some of them plugs come right out & some of them will require a 3' cheater pipe on the 15" wrench ! Breech plug fits are like a box of chocolates, ya jus never know what ya are gonna get......

Now lots of fellers pad the barrels & shim them & etc. I don't. I chuck that sucker in the vice & tighten the bejesus out of it & put the wrench to it. Don't care if I make a lil tiny mark on the barrel or not, as I am gonna draw file it anyway so it is not a concern, when I am done it will be slickers than a babies behind anyway, so this is not a concern. Now if it were a really thin walled barrel, I would go light on the vice & just tighten it enough to hold it. But have had several barrels brought to me for debreeching as the guys didn't have enough vice or table to hold it. I suggest a vice with a jaw Width of 6" (not opening, jaw width) and this give ya allot more stability. Plus this gives ya a good reason to go to Lowes & buy that big Wilton vice ya have been wanting for 5 years anyway !! :rotf: :thumbsup: . Also if ya don't have enough vice, that sucker will roll right out of the vice & round off your flats too & THAT my friend is a real bummer...........

Make sure you have a index mark across the bottom flat where the plug & barrel meet, so you know exactly where to take the barrel back to & get the flats back right. If it don't have one, take a small chissel & make one or a graver & cut a index mark across it.

Now don't get excited about puttin that breechplug back, as you are gonna have it in & out 2-3 times.

Ya get the barrel in where ya need it, , bend the tang, inlet the tang, etc.

When ya get the gun in the white, you will then drill the vent & the breechplug will come back out again so you can get the depth right, checking thru the breech end & filing off the shaving inside & etc & all, then the plug goes back in & etc.

If ya run into a snag just get on here & give a holler & someone will help ya out.

Good Luck ! :thumbsup: