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Black powder people a few questions RE: flintlocks

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Dalton Wayne

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I am picking up a Hawkins style 50 cal flintlock rifle
can I use 2 f in the pan and 3 f in the rifle
what size balls should I pickup 490 or 495 I'm going to use pillow ticking for the patches cut my own I will need everything flints' possibles bag powder horn priming horn, I have plenty of powder I'm going to hunt with this rifle I'd like to keep it as traditional as I can
also how many grains for a 50 cal I was thinking about 60?
What say you
Regards
DW
 
I use 4f to prime and 68 grains of 3f in my rifle. Just what my rifle likes. I also use .490 balls.
 
If you plan to use 3fg in the barrel, I see no advantage in using 2fg in the pan. I expected you to say the other way around. If you plan on carrying only one type of powder, I'd use 3fg in both. My personal preference would be 3fg in the barrel and 4fg in the pan.

As to the load, that should be worked up for your particular gun. You'll hear many annswers for the load - some like heavier loads than others. Since we don't know how long your barrel is or what its twist is, we're kind of guessing here. I might start with 70 gr 3fg to get you started on a hunting load. You may find your rifle likes that load, but I'd guess you'll need to experiment. For a target load I'd go lighter. I used to shoot 55-60 gr of 2fg in a .50. Paper isn't hard to kill. Your gun will kind of tell you what it likes.

Regards,
Pletch
 
Welcome to Flinters,
To start you need flints to fit your rifle, patching, patch lube or saliva. balls, an adjustable powder measure and vent pick would be nice, and anything to carry it all in will do to start. A shooting bench would be best but anything solid to rest the rifle on will do. Pad it.
You didn't mention the pedigree of the rifle, but here are some suggestions.
I would use the 3F for priming.
You can start working up your load at 50 gr. of 3F and increase by 5 grains at a time until you determine which charge wieght shoots the best group. I would not go beyond 90 gr. You can then do the same with the 2F. Start with the .490 ball with .015" to .020" patching. If you are not happy with any of the groups, try the larger ball. When you know what your rifle shoots best, then adjust the sights to the point of aim. DO NOT get frustrated if at first you have some ignition problems or hit any other snags. Just come back to this forum and some one will help.
Jon D
 
I should say I'm not new to flintlocks just haven't had one for 30 years, A good friend now deceased Roy Keeler taught me everything but in the last 30 years I've forget most of what he taught me I have a musket but really like flintlocks and can't wait to get going again, not going to compete just have fun.
Regards
DW
 
4f is best in the pan but 3f is just fine, too. 3f is great for the main charge. 50 grains 3f is a good place to start and a .490 ball is usually a good choice though some like .495. Use a good lube and patch at least .015" to start. you may do better with a thicker patch.
 
I prime my T/C Hawken .50 with 3F or 4F and use 45 grains 3F for targets, plinking. 70 grains of 2F does for me for a hunting load, whitetails in bushy country. However, every rifle varies. graybeard
 
saber said:
I use 4f in the pan and 120grs of 3f for main load
Wow! 120 grains in a 50 is a lot of powder, but if that is what your rifle likes, then who am I to question it. I would say that I would venture to say that if you were to shoot that load over snow, that there would be a lot of unburned powder laying on the snow. For a .50 I use 50-60 grains of 3fg for target shooting and 75-80 grains for hunting. No need for any more than that and the rifle shoots fine with those loads.
 
I use 4f in the pan, level and against the touchhole. I shoot either 3f or 2f in the gun. I try to keep loads around 65 grs even target shooting because I like to feel how the rifle is working especially for when I go hunting with it. I use Hornady .490 RB and .018 Pillow patches with Bore Butter.
 
I agree 120 gr is a lot of powder. I use 65 in my .54. You can only burn so much powder in a barrell. all excess is blown out the bore. As already said. Start at 50 and work up. 2f is suposed to be used in rifles 50 & up, my .54 likes 3f best. Have to shoot the rifle and find out what it likes.
 
I shoot 70 grns 2f swiss with 4f in the pan at the range but 3f when hunting(stands up to the moisture better).Dead on at 50 yrds.
 
For a hunting load in my .50 EV I relied on a 100 grain 3f charge & 4f prime. That load is dynamite on deer and target accurate. Barrel length is 42" and velocity/recoil are high.

Epiphany: For deer you don't need that kind of power! My target load was 60 grains. These days hunting loads stay around 60-80 grains top. Milder works just as good and pleasant, to boot. Same thing goes for my .54.
 
I'm with armakiller. I'll prime with FFFFg at the range, but hunt with FFFg prime for the same reason. It works just as good :thumbsup:
 
I can think of no reason for using 120 grains of 3Fg powder in a .50 caliber gun.

That said, the idea that all of the "extra" powder over some arbitrary size will just be blown out of the barrel isn't true.
Saying this gives the false impression that a person cannot overload a muzzleloader shooting black powder.

This chart shows the velocity increase that Lyman's Black Powder Handbook gives for various powder charges.
50-COMPARISON.jpg


Notice that the velocity keeps increasing as the powder load goes up.
What is NOT SHOWN is the breech pressures associated with the powder loads.

These breech pressures go up rather rapidly as the powder load increases and overloading a muzzleloader can have catastrophic effects.

As a side note: The commonly accepted rule is to reduce the powder load 15 percent when shooting 3Fg instead of 2Fg.
That said, a 120 grain load of 3Fg powder is roughly equal to a load of 138 grains of 2Fg powder !!!
 
This will take care of any questions you may have about the best load to get the most accuracy from your rifle. Dutch Schultz knows what he is talking about and will have you shooting the smallest groups in the quickest time. It will be the best $20 you will ever spend on your rifle.
http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
 
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There is a law of aerodynamics that goes something like, "whatever goes out faster into air, slows faster, too". Your chart shows that you can get more Muzzle Velocity by loading those huge powder charges. But, if you were to look at down range velocities, you will see that most of the Added velocity is lost within 50 yard, and so little is left at 100 yds, that you are well within the SDV for any given caliber at that range. Under these circumstances, all you have succeeded in doing is emptying your pocket book a bit faster, and increased the pounding of your shoulder considerably, for little gain down range.

When you go past 100 yds, the RB looses velocity so fast, and drops so steeply, that you can't Hold IRON SIGHTS well enough to tell the difference between a reasonable load, and those "magnum loads" of Black powder.

The fact that more powder will produce more velocity at the muzzle is rather academic, and has no real merit out in the field.

You can see this with a simply test in your living room, using balloons as projectiles:

1. Blow up 3 balloons the same size in diameter.
2.Now, take one balloon and throw it as Hard as you can, using an overhand arm swing, as if you were throwing a Major league baseball. Mark the floor with a pillow, tape, pencil, etc. where it lands. Repeat this three times to get an average.
3. Now, do the same test, but throw the balloon gently- as gently as you can push it. Mark the floor.
4. Now throw the balloon a medium velocity and mark where it lands.

You should find that the balloon lands further than the first Hard thrown balloon.

5. Now, to understand drag factors, and why more velocity doesn't necessarily give you more velocity down range, take the 3 balloons, held together, by their ties, and repeat these three tests, hard and fast, slow, and medium. Mark the floor where all three balloons land.

This give you an idea of what happens to shotgun pellets when fired from a gun, too. The hard and Fast velocity forces the balloons to come up short, and disperse widely. The Slow keeps the balloons together, but they fall short. Medium speed sends the balloons the furthest, and disperses them less than the hard and fast test does.

The first series of tests will show you what happens to a RB when its fired at maximum velocities, rather than at its most efficient velocity.

The Second set of tests show you what happens to lead shot pellets in front of a shotgun. Both illustrate the Law of Aerodynamics that says what goes out into air faster, slows faster.

There are shooters who want to believe(Pretend) that air is nothing- or isn't there at all, simply because they can't "see it". The Reality is that air is there, it does cause drag, and that ballistics coefficients used to put a value on the drag factors for any given ball diameter, and velocity are as important to performance of balls as projectiles, as they are to streamlined bullets. :hmm:
 
Well, Paul, yes, a projectile looses a larger percentage of its initial velocity if the muzzle velocity is increased however balloons don't work quite like a roundball.

A faster muzzle velocity will produce a faster 100 yard velocity.

To graphically show this I have taken the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook data for a 32 inch long .50 caliber barrel shooting GOEX 3Fg powder and made a graph.

The numbers at the bottom of the graph are the powder loads in grains.
The vertical numbers on the left are velocity.
100-YD-VEL.jpg


It should be noted that higher muzzle velocities result in higher downrange velocity.
The aerodynamic effects of a higher velocity that you mention are shown by the widening distances between the muzzle velocity for a given powder load and the 100 yard velocity for that same powder load.

Have a good one! :)
 
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