Bayonet lug strength?

[MarineCorporal]

Got a dp Brown Bess with a soldered on bayonet lug. I'm a bit weary of having the bayonet fixed on it, because it doesn't look like it'll hold.
Has anyone effectively used the bayonet without the lug breaking off? (by this I mean bayonet practice)

 

[pargent]

Yes but please note a dove tail set up is preferred when firing live rounds with the bayonet fitted, the bayonet needs to be fitted to each gun , the socket has to have a good fit to the barrel some slight drag and no shake , now the most important bit always overlooked is the end of the final slot must mate against the front edge of the lug just as it touches the font surface of the stock end cap , if the set up is not like this then the bayonet will stay in the body and come at least 1/2 way or right off the barrel on remove stroke :haha:

 

[MarineCorporal]

That's a great suggestion. Considering the thickness of the BB barrel at the muzzle however...would it be prudent to even attempt to cut a dovetail?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Of course, why not? 1601Phil is correct, bayonet lugs were dovetailed then brazed to the barrel. The dovetail is very shallow - about half the thickness of the barrel near the muzzle - and does little more than increase the area brazed than anything else, so it does make the attachment stronger by the increased surface area.

One question though, are you sure that the sight on yours is soldered on? If so, what kind of solder was used? A high temp silver solder is likely more than strong enough to do the job, but, of course, dovetail/brazing is stronger.

Also, if your Bess is one of the Italian made versions, the bayonet lug is welded to the barrel and will more than adequately do the job.

 

[Artificer]

Semper Fi, Brother

Just to be certain sure we are on the same track, does your description of "dp Brown Bess" mean a Davide Pedersoli Brown Bess? If so as Manuf.06 noted, the front sight/bayonet lug is welded on and is more than strong enough to hold a bayonet on for Bayonet Drill Practice. I have silver soldered on some replacement front sights and they are strong enough as well. I do agree with 1601phill that the original method of dovetailing and brazing the front sight was a very secure method to hold the front sight on.

However, if you intend to actually stick something fairly hard with your bayonet mounted on your musket or do bayonet fencing, the weak point on many reproductions is the reproduction bayonet. I've seen repro bayonets with the blades sprung/bent and occasionally the blade broken off the socket from such things. This because most repro bayonets are not hardened and tempered like the original bayonets.

Gus

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

True, the reproduction bayonets are famous for their lack of temper, often bending more often than breaking.

 

[JackAubrey]

The bayonets do make great candle holders though! Stick the pointy end in the ground, a candle in the other , and yer set ! I'm certainly not one to contradict a fellow musketeer, but I would like to point out my brand new Pedersoli 1861 Springfield front sight/bayonet lug was silver soldered on. The reason I know is, it was crooked. Kinda frustrating considering how much it cost, but not enough to go to all the trouble of sending it back. I had a local gunsmith fix it for me. I originally wanted it welded on ,but he told me unless someone really knows how to tig weld well, they will damage the barrel by welding. So is the Pedersoli BB welded? Beats me. I have had one for 21 years, and it has never come off,but I've never stuck anything w/ my bayonet. It looks silver soldered, but I could not swear to it. I just thought I'd throw that out there. JA

 

[pargent]

Original worn lug

.

 

[pargent]

Pedersoli with bayonet

 

[MarineCorporal]

Now we're talking...
That Highlander has a nice range.

Jack, I simply can't wait to try that in camp.

 

[Homesteader]

Before I sold my Japanese Bess to someone (here on the forum I think), I fitted a bayonet and actually practiced with it on hay bales and dirt and the like. I never damaged the lug or the bayonet.

At first there was play in the socket I didn't like, so I glued a small strip of buckskin to the inside. That made it fit snug with no play. After that I was running around sticking everything for a couple of months!

This may not really be pertinent, but I'm a very big strong boy, and after all that sticking and stabbing I had no problem with my lug. (It was Japanese, from their 'quality' days, though.)

:hmm:

 

[Grenadier1758]

The answer is yes, my unit of grenadiers has used our King's Muskets with bayonets in practice. Part of our drill is to stick bundles stuffed with straw. The other exercise is to try to stick a swinging cantaloupe melon or grapefruit.

Being grenadiers we also have used our muskets with the grenade launcher that attaches to the barrel of the musket. Think of the barrel of the Rifle Shoppe's Hand Mortar fitted to a musket with the slots cut to index on the bayonet lug. We learned a very important lesson from that. The first one was built to pattern and located on the bayonet lug. We fired one round with a wooden "grenade". The lesson we learned is that the original grenade launchers were located on the muzzle of the musket with the bayonet lug since our test knocked back the bayonet lug and drove the launcher back into the stock. The grenade was otherwise successfully launched.

So from our use of muskets, Pedersoli, Japanese, Rifle Shoppe, Narragansett Arms, Middlesex Village, and Loyalist Arms, we have verified that the bayonet lug is suitable for its intended use.

Be careful not to greatly overstress the lug.

 

[Artificer]

I found your post very interesting, but I am afraid I am somewhat confused. I have seen photo's of original 18th century grenade launchers, but I've only seen one behind glass in a museum and do not know how they worked.

Do you mean there is supposed to be an inside shoulder on the grenade launcher that rests on the barrel, but does not protrude into the bore (otherwise the gas might blow the launcher off) and the bayonet lug also takes up the shock of firing?

Or do you mean there is no inside shoulder on the launcher and the entire shock of launching the grenade is taken by the bayonet lug/front sight and perhaps the front of the stock?

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

You're correct. There is an inside ring that rests on the muzzle and doesn't obstruct the bore. The bayonet lug almost touches the end of the slot. There is a built-in gap to allow for gas to escape and prevent obstruction of the bore. Besides the recoil of launching the grenade more than overcomes the propulsion from the blank charge. The fire from the blank charge lights the fuse of the grenade.

We had two launchers. The first one was built from photos and a look at one behind glass in a museum. That sheared the lug off and pushed the launcher into the stock past the ram rod pipe. I think that the tenon stopped it.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures.

The second one was built after some more research. That's when we learned about the internal stop at the muzzle. Even use of that launcher requires caution as the tolerances of the barrels is such that you really want a good seat on the muzzle.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you for the further explanation.

Have to admire your unit's creativeness and desire for authenticity in making period grenade launchers. I don't know, but I think yours is one of the few, if not the only Grenadier unit to have done it?

Gus

 

[pargent]

ORIGINALS had a collar shrunk onto the end of the barrel .

 

[Loyalist Dave]

In the Loyal American Regiment, one of the members, Joe, worked for his county's road system, and he had to on several occasions go out with a truck and pickup roadkilled deer. He took his Jap bess with him and bayonet, and tried it out on the chests of several of the fresher beasts, and found the triangular bayonet went in well, and came free in a very easy manner.

:hmm:

Needles to say... although he often had venison jerky and was willing to share, we did not partake of his victuals. :shocked2:

LD

 

[MarineCorporal]

Is there any chance that a locking ring of this sort can be bought separately and installed into a sloppy Brown Bess bayonet?

 

[Artificer]

It is possible, but would not be correct for 18th century and probably would cost more than it is worth.

However, one easier way to tighten up a sloppy bayonet and was period correct is to solder some thin sheet brass into the socket. Now you don't want to do it on the bottom of the socket, normally, as that can/will cause you to have to file out the notch for the front sight. Some repro bayonets already have a collar that is not very thick to do it. So if you stick with soldering sheet brass bent to a curve and soldered into the top part of the socket (as the socket sits on the barrel, that will tighten the bayonet up without having to do more work.

Not sure how clear that is, but it is easy to see when you have the bayonet and musket in hand and can figure where to solder the bent rounded sheet brass.

Gus

 

[pargent]

Also I have fitted mine by driving a section of copper water pipe into the socket then cutting the slot and lapping out the id of the copper pipe to fit the barrel .