barrel making stuff

[M. De Land]

I went through the second video again tonight Mike, showing the deep hole drilling, reaming and rifling of a complete barrel on his machine. His run out in 27 inches was .002. I never get tired of watching that stuff and thinking sideways about possible improvements.
I really enjoy his teaching on barrel drill geometry, why and how they cut around the tree formed in the middle of the hole from the primary and secondary cutting edges. Wonder how that was ever discovered?
He has a fixture for sharpening the barrel drills from a lathe tool post and shows how to make it.
Webb did go into what I spoke earlier of and that was that the grooves in hooked rifled barrels will always be shallower in both ends of the barrel for about a half inch in because of head clearance tilt until it is in the bore far enough to support behind the cutter face.He makes his heads from o-1 and A-2 hardened with only .001 clearance max so it sure can't be much of a tilt constriction. It usually is not detected because one end has the chamber reamed or breech plug fitted and the other end has the crown dressed back.
He only mentioned it as important to know when showing how his groove measuring tools work at barrel completion so one doesn't cut them to deep, measuring off the shallower grooves at both ends. His tool reaches in about 1.5 inches or so, past the constriction, on an angle. The tilt is for clearance on the groove width anvil at the end which has a cross section exactly to the groove diameter required. When the shank of the tool , which is turned to bore diameter lines up enough to just slide in, the groove is at final depth.
Webb also has a Sheffield air gauge and demonstrated how it worked. Amazing tool for measure groove uniformity. I have heard they are woefully expensive though.
Any way I thought I would pass it along to check out as it might be of some use for you to know at some point. Mike D.

 

[jamesthomas]

I think, perhaps this was meant to be a Private Topic. Kinda sounds like it.

 

[mhb]

M.D.:
Apparently not everyone is as interested in barrel making, per-se, as we are.
Feel free to resort to PM or email.

mhb - Mike

 

[rich pierce]

There's no intro to the story. Don't know who, where, what or when, just some of the how. I am sure there's plenty of interest.

 

[mhb]

Rich:
It's a continuation/relocation from another thread - which was sorta hijacked (round-versus square-bottomed rifling).
It was tactfully(?) suggested that the diverted discussion should be taken elsewhere, so M.D. did.
The two hijackers knew what was meant (I'm the other guilty party).
Regret any confusion - enthusiasts tend to get carried away.

mhb - Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I think plenty of folks are interested and perhaps a few home machinest will be encouraged to start making their own tubes as well. I don't see any reason to cut those folks off from a very interesting discussion because others don't care about it.
I have wondered about optimum depth and type of grooving for patched ball guns and have heard every thing from .006 all the way to .012. It would seem that one would not want any more depth than is necessary to reliably grip the ball through the patch.
I would further think that perhaps wide grooves may not be the best choice for cloth patching bore grip. It is without question better for lead bullet shooting because of less deformation of the projectile. Any thoughts on these two aspects? Mike D.

 

[mhb]

M.D.:
I've thought about it, and my personal feeling is that lands and grooves of about equal width are best for patched RB. Very deep and/or narrow grooves are harder for the patch material to fill properly to provide gas sealing, so may be more prone to burnthrough.
The groove depth question is not so clear-cut, but I think that probably .008" - .010" is proper for typical patch thicknesses and materials - the question of correct patch thickness for a given bore diameter and ball diameter is arguable, but I've found that allowing a difference between ball and bore (that is, land diameter) equal to no more than one half the thickness of the patch material works well. Thicker patch material than that can make loading difficult, while normal compression of the material provides a good, tight fit between ball and bore, without needing excessive loading force. Also, the slightly thicker materials make a better job of sealing the grooves against excessive gas escape and/or patch burnthrough. Very strong, very tightly-woven material such as best linen is excellent for patching, and can be used in thinner material with results at least equal to somewhat thicker cotton ticking, drill, muslin, etc.. Very deep grooves can do nothing to improve the control and grip exerted on the ball - only the fit established by the combination of ball, patch and land diameter are factors in that. A proper combination will actually press the patch material into the ball, leaving a clear marking of each land, and usually, the pattern of the weave of the patch.
But ML rifles are each a rule unto themselves, and each one will show its preferences only with actual shooting of various patch materials, different charges, lubrication, etc.

mhb - Mike

 

[Greebe]

What video are you referring to? I am interested in barrel making but don't have any reference for what you are talking about either as was pointed out in a previous reply.

 

[M. De Land]

I can get the address information for you if you would like. As I remember it cost me about 100 dollars for the set of plans to build the machine and two very informative instruction videos on much of the particulars of barrel minutia that would take lots of trial and error to figure out.
I figure these and Labounty's book has saved me years of experimenting just to get things working in the beginning of the learning curve.
Than of course we can begin to work our own personal nuance into this art form.
Do you have access to a lathe, mil, heat treating furnace and drill press. These will greatly save time and expense of having to hire everything out. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

Let me see if I got this right. If I am using a patch thickness of .018 than I want a ball .009 smaller than land (bore)diameter, as a general starting place?
Got another question. Is the three groove rifling in the minie ball muskets a ratchet profile? MD

 

[Greebe]

Yes I have a machine shop including lathe, mill, and CNC Gang Lathe, plus surface prep equipment and heat treating equipment. I have been interested in barrel making for some time. I have been tossing around the idea of making some smoothebore barrels in .62 / 20 bore.

However there is not a lot of info out there on barrel making. Must be a highly guarded secret for the most part. Perhaps it is like blacksmithing in the old days. They made it appear that there was some magical art form to it to keep the laymen from picking it up.

I would be interested in whatever info you might have.

Thanks
Greebe

 

[mhb]

M.D.:
1. That's sorta right - of course, most of us don't have custom molds for every barrel. The typical 'standard' modern barrels of nominally .50 and .54 calibers, say, are pretty close to the nominal .500" and .540" bore diameters - but not usually dead-on. Usually it's perfectly workable to try one of the standard ball diameters for the nominal caliber (.490" or .495" and .530" or .535", respectively) and various combinations of those with different patch materials. All of my rifles in those calibers shoot very well with patches running between .018" to .025" thickness and, usually, the larger diameter ball.
Smoothbores usually work best with somewhat thinner patches, if of the same bore diameters, because there are no grooves into which some of the patch material can fold.

2. The standard rifle musket rifling is of conventional (concentric) profile, though having progressive-depth grooves (and, thanks to Mr. LaBounty, we now have a good description of how that is accomplished).

mhb - Mike

 

[Greebe]

I see you live in Achoragua. Is it still getting taken over by chechacos? All those da%* reality shows.

 

[mhb]

Greebe:
Lord, no! Barrel making is not a dark art, and barrel makers are not a closed guild. Most of them are very willing to share what they know.
There are actually several very good books available which have useful information on barrel making - 'The Modern Gunsmith' by James V. Howe, and 'Gunsmithing' by Roy F. Dunlap, to name just two.
It sounds like you already have a good grounding in basic machine tool technology, operation and materials, which are the bases of barrel making.
I think if you will check into the subject, you will find quite a lot of good information is available, and the rest is practice and experience.
Good Luck!

mhb - Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Sounds like your in great shape to make barrels.
I have both volumes that Mike spoke of and use Dunlap the most for general gun work. Howe is a two volume set and is well worth having.
Labounty's work is really easy to read and has lots of pictures.
The plans and videos came from Guy Lautard, West Vancouver, B.C. Canada V7V2Z9 phone 604-922-4909
I have no affiliation with any of the entities other than as a consumer of the information they provide. Mike D.

 

[theoldredneck]

I enjoy reading about barrel making. Almost bought a barrel makers setup years ago from a guy that was getting out of the business. Didn't but have often wished I had. Not to be able to sell barrels but to make custom calibers for personal use. Now that the wildcatting has been replaced with muzzle loading it is a thought again. Shooting a odd size muzzle loader is easier than wildcats and much cheaper. Enjoy your information.

 

[M. De Land]

I remember thinking at one time that it would be impossible to make a progressive depth cut rifle groove in a barrel.
But was surprised to learn how easy it can be done.
Great Idea that Brit had with the square rod stock twisted and fed through a square hole following the rifling head and gradually screw lifting the cutter wedge as it progressed up bore.
I had a friend that made a 2.250 bore, cannon barrel and rifled it with a head he made of hard wood using a twisted square steel half inch rod to impart the twist. It came out pretty nice for his first try. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

Good, that is the idea of this thread is to get lots of folks with interest in this area thinking and exchanging information and ideas.
It just saves so much time and expense when lots of people are thinking and chewing over a subject.
Good ideas and even not so good ones usually contribute to the over all advancement of a subject. It's just as important to find out what doesn't work as what does many times.
Bill Webb and his farther spent two whole years making and trying different cutter profiles from incorrect information they had read about, finally gave up and just used common sense to put positive rake in the cutter face instead of negative. The positive rake worked beautifully.
The negative worked alright with mild steel aprently but was totally useless on alloy steel. MD

 

[Greebe]

What steel is being used for muzzleloading barrels? Seems that 4140 would be a good choice but I have seem little discussion on this. In the old days they hand forged barrels from wrought iron or mild steel so certainly 4140 would work well.

 

[M. De Land]

It would be very good but probably overkill.
GM uses 1137 which is very strong and has good machining characteristics I'm told.
I would stay away from the cold roll steels like 12L14 which would probably be fine if hot rolled. It machines very well but is not very good with radial shock load. Some makers use it but only for muzzle loading barrels. I'd prefer to stay away from it personally. Mike D.