• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Barrel Conditioning

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

longcruise

70 Cal.
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
9,091
Reaction score
6,323
Location
Colorado
We have had many discussions here on the forums regarding correct patch, lube, ball size, etc., etc. I have often mentioned that in my opinion bore and crown condition is the source of many shooters problems. Especially with new rifles. In our last discussion several forum members asked that I post more detail on what I mean and how I go about improving bores and crowns. So, here it is. Hope it comes across as understandable. I'm not very good at 'spaining things but hopefully the picutres will help.

One of the biggest problems that new shooters and old shooters with new guns seem to encounter is problems with "blown" or "burnt out" patches. The typical solutions applied are variations in patch material, lube, ball size and powder charge. Often these problems seem to be "solved" by finding that perfect powder charge or sweet spot. Generally the new shooter complains that his rifle shoots great up to xx grains of powder but won't shoot any heavier charge. In my experience, the reason for that sweet spot or max accurate charge is that the patches are able to hold together up to a certain point but after that point they give out. And, that they are giving out due to poor barrel and crown condition.

The purpose of conditioning your ml barrel is to prevent patch cutting and damage. Your patches can be damaged and cut when the load is pressed through the crown and on the sharp lands of a new ml barrel. Even if the sharp edges of the rifling don't cut the patch on the way down, they can still cut when your load is on the way out!

This process is not the solution to poor quality patch material. No matter what the condition of your bore, your patch material needs to be thick enough and tough enough. If it's not both of those things there will be problems. On the other hand, good patch material is not all that rare. There are many sources for good quality patch material. The dedicated shooter tries a number of patch materials with several different ball sizes until the best combination is discovered.

But, I contend that it's a waste of your time and resources to start out testing patches, balls and lubes before your barrel condition is optimized. You can shoot your rifle until the sharp edges of the rifling eventually wear down. Some shooters may prefer to do it that way. It could take anywhere from 200 to 800 shots to break in the rifling. And, on top of that, you will never improve the muzzle crown by shooting!

This process is most beneficial with the Italian and Spanish made barrels as well as the American made Green Mountain barrels. I feel that these barrels are all very well made but they just are not finished the way a custom or higher priced barrel is. These barrels can be made to shoot extremely well with just a few hours work on your part.

This is accomplished using two different procedures; barrel lapping and crown shaping. There is always more than one way of doing most things and that applies to barrel conditioning. Barrels can be lapped in several ways and crowns can be optimized in several ways as well. I'm only going to describe the two procedures that I use but am sure you can obtain the same end result using other methods.

The first procedure, crowning, is done at home with a set of tools that you will make yourself. You will need an electric hand drill, preferably a very high speed one, and a drill press with a sanding drum or a belt sander. You will also need three long 1/4 inch or 5/16 inch bolts, some five minute epoxy and a piece of 1 inch diameter hardwood dowel. Cut three sections of the dowel about two inches long. Using a drill press, drill a hole from end to end through the center as close to center as you can get it on the three sections of dowel. The hole should match the size of your bolts, eg., 1/4 or 5/16th. If you are going to lap barrels of less than .50 caliber, you should use the 1/4 inch size bolts. Cut the heads off the bolts and then, using your five minute epoxy, glue the bolts inside the dowel sections with about two inches of the unthreaded end of the bolt sticking out one end. Let these set up thoroughly, which, in my experience, is much longer than the five minutes advertised!

Here is a series of pictures showing what is described above and below.

1dowel.JPG


2aligndowel.JPG


3drilldowel.JPG


4shapecone.JPG


5finished_tools.JPG


8toolprep.JPG


You are going to make three tools, each with a different angle, with each tool having a steeper angle than the last. These angles are not critical but they should be mutually complimentary. Study the pictures accompanying to get an idea of the angles needed. Next, take one of your "tools" and lay it on the bench and roll it along with a pencil up against the dowel so as to draw a line around the dowel. The distance from the bottom of the dowel to the line will determine the angle you will end up with on that particular tool.

Chuck the unthreaded end of the tool into your hand drill and run it against the rotating sanding drum in such a way as to remove the wood on the dowel between the point where the bolt protrudes at the bottom of the dowel and the line you drew around the dowel. Don't use too much pressure while doing this. Too much pressure can put a bend in your bolt. Refer to the photos for a clearer understanding on this wood reduction process.

Once you have created your three tools, you are ready to begin work.

The reason we used the longish bolts was so that we can create a bore guide to help us keep the tools aligned on the muzzle while we work. Using the long bolts allows you to set the bore guide deep enough into the barrel so as to have less error. I found that using 5/16th bolts with two nuts locked together on the lower shaft made a near perfect fit on a .50 caliber barrel. Wrapping the bolts in tape made a fit to a .54 caliber barrel.

Use some double sided tape to attach 320 emery paper to the cones on your tools. The best type of tape is the kind with the foam backing on both sides. The foam helps create a more rounded radius in the crown. You will have to snip and fit to get the double sided tape on your cone but you will see it is not that difficult. You can use a compass to draw out the cuts on your emery paper or you can just wrap and snip to fit as well.

The actual crowning process is easier if the barrel is removed from the rifle. But, if your barrel is pinned or otherwise difficult to remove, then leave it in the stock. You can start with any of the three tools, just as long as you work all three tools on the crown before calling the job done. Assuming you are right handed, grip the barrel with your left hand near the muzzle. Hold the the tool in your right hand and insert it into the barrel. Don't try to work it by holding the piece of bolt that extends from the top. And absolutely do not apply a power tool to the process. Grip the tool around the top end of the dowel as in the photo. Now, work the tool, with some pressure applied, back in forth in the bore about five times. Then, rotate the barrel 1/8th turn, using the flats as a guide or using your best guess if the barrel is round. Once again, work it back and forth four or five times then rotate. Repeat this until you have made some progress in your crown. The combination of the guides on the bolts and the continuous turning of the barrel will eliminate any errors in your tools and technique.

9stepone.JPG


Here are before and after pics of a GM .54 barrel. And, yes, they are the same barrel! The difference in appearance is from one pic taken indoors under fourescent light and the other outdoors.

7GMbefore.JPG


10gmafter.JPG


This one is not crowned very deep. I may go a bit deeper with this one depending on how it loads and shoots next time out. The next picture is a Traditions Deerhunter that I crowned a bit deeper. This gun was a patch wrecker before. Now it shoots with just about anything!

6traditionsafter.JPG


Use your own judgment as far as how much you crown the muzzle. It does not take a very wide or deep crown to prevent patch damage at loading and to make loading a thick patch easier. I take mine down until the lands are cut down to a point that is even with the grooves at the muzzle. It may not take that much with yours. Like I said, use your own judgment.

This crowning process is not coning. Coning goes much deeper into the barrel.

The second procedure is lapping. What I will describe here is fire lapping. Fire lapping is the process of firing bullets that have been impregnated with lapping compound through a barrel . It is a very simple process, as you will soon see. It is important that you use lapping compounds that are made specifically for fire lapping. Homemade concoctions will result in serious and permanent damage to your barrel. I have direct experience with two different compounds. One is Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) compound and the other is a set of three different grits offered as the Wheeler fire lapping kit. When using the wheeler kit, I apply only the coarsest compound since it is all that is needed to get us where we want to go. If you want to go another step or two in finer grits, it will certainly do no harm.

The compound is applied to conventional lead conical slugs of a caliber that fits your barrel. When they are available, I use hollow base conicals. My thinking here is that the hollow base will more readily expand into the rifling. However, I have used solid base conicals with equal success. The compound is applied by rolling the bullet between two steel pads with a liberal amount of the lapping compound slathered on the pads. I use two flat pieces of cold rolled steel about 1.5 inches wide. Hardware stores and home improvement centers have the metal in stock. When I cast my own conicals, I use them bare with no lube. When store bought with lube already applied, I leave the lube on. It does not seem to make any difference. You will need a minimum of 10 lap bullets for one barrel. More, as in 15 or 20 is better. It is easier if you load the compound into the bullets before heading off to the range. You can roll the compound into 20 bullets in about ten minutes. This is not a time consuming process!

These photos show the bullets used, the metal plates and the lap compound. Also before, rolling lap in and after.

11laptools.JPG


12lapbullets.JPG


13bulletbeforelap.JPG


14rollinglapbullet.JPG


15bulletafterroll.JPG


Once you are at the range, you proceed as in any other shooting session. Wipe your bore clear of grease and/or oil, maybe pop a cap or two to clear your ignition path and you are ready to begin. Drop 25 or 30 grains of powder down the bore and push one of your lap slugs down on top. Cap and fire. It's that simple! After each shot, wipe your bore with a damp patch and then dry it with a dry patch before reloading. When you have fired all of your lap slugs, you are done with this process.

If you want to add interest and create a baseline by which you can measure your success, try this; before you crown or fire your lap rounds, load your typical patch ball combo on top of the max charge intended for your rifle. Use a marker pen to put a distinctive mark on the patch so you will know which is which when you pick up the fired patches. Do this about five times. When your crown job is finished and lap bullets have all been fired, repeat this process, putting a different mark on the patch so as to tell the pre conditioning patches from the post conditioning patches. If you see absolutely no difference in the before and after patches,...well, your barrel did not need lapping! But, I assure you it is no worse for the procedure and will at the very least be easier to load and clean. On the other hand, you will most likely see a difference in the condition of the patches.
 
Thank you, Marmotslayer. This is a very good, well written description of how to make effective tools for crowning a barrel( better), and for fire lapping the barrel. The first thing shooters will notice is how much less force it takes to start a PRB into the barrel. The next thing they will notice is how much smoother the barrel is as they run the PRB down the barrel to the powder.

The third thing they will notice is how much easier the barrel is to wipe clean between shots.

The fourth thing is the improvment in group size that they will get around to finding out, out of curiousity, by finally putting the gun on a bench rest and shooting some new targets at 50 yds. :shocked2: :hmm: :grin: :grin: :wink: :hatsoff:
 
Where can you get the Lead Bullet Technology. And thanks for the information on barrel conditioning.
 
Sure: Why not? Crowning the fowler barrel insures that you are not cutting patching on the muzzle as you drive a PRB down the bore. Its the same issue as in rifles, only you also have the sharp edges on the lands to polish and reshape, in addition to the circumference of the bore.
 
Marmotslayer - well written and very informative . . . but I will take a slightly contrary stance. The methods you describe are on the aggressive side of barrel treatment IMHO. I have hand lapped (not fire lapped with an abrasive conical) bores before, but only after other more gentle solutions did not pan out. It doesn't take long to ruin a barrel with either an off-center, canted or wobbly cone (or with the nuts & bolt threads deeper inside the barrel) or abrade life away from good rifling with excessive fire lapping. You did warn and the article is great, but I would advise to procede with caution and ONLY after shooting at least 300 rounds out of a new barrel to see how it breaks in normally.

Also, brand new T/C barrels (the ones I have owned, at least) are rough and full of tooling "chatter" marks. A firelapping may be the ticket. Also for a rusty or pitted bore. But to put a butter smooth when new L.C. Rice barrel up and lap it just because it looks interesting to try may do much more harm than good.

It's like taking antibiotics. You should be sick before hand. ;-)
 
Don Powell said:
Should you crown a fowler barrel?

An interesting aside: Kit Ravenshear roughed up the bore of my smoothie from about 6" down to 1" down from the muzzle. He said this slowed the wads a hair and kept them from smacking the shot column just past the muzzle and blowing the pattern in a cylinder bore. Can't say it was true, but he was one heck of a smoothbore smith (and former Tower of London armorer) and probably would not have bothered is it wasn't somehow proven.
 
Of all the barrels I've had over the years, only two caused problems with patches...a T/C .45cal RB barrel, and a GM .58cal RB barrel. Fortunately both of them settled down after a few range trips...probably a couple hundred PRBs each...and have been fine since.

The end of the lands at the muzzle of the .58cal in particular seemed to be the culprit with it and my conclusion is that the repeated hard short-starting of a couple hundred very tight fitting .575's & .018" pillow ticking smoothed off the offending edges and it stopped.

My personal decision is that I won't risk damaging the muzzles or bores of any of my barrels by attempting local remedies in my garage...if I ever get a barrel that doesn't settle down and appears to be unusually troublsome, its going back to the manufacturer to fix or replace under warranty...that's just me...but I admire anyone with the skills and knowhow to do things like that.
 
cangun6.jpg

This barrel had to be shortened to remove a damaged area.
After sawing and squaring the end up I used a modified method of crowning the barrel.

Somewhat like marmotslayer's method, I formed a rough countersink into the bore but I used a formed grinding stone. This is the kind that has a steel shank intended to be used in an electric drill.
Note: I DID NOT use an electric drill with this stone. Instead, I rotated it a few turns in the bore by hand. I then rotated the barrel 1/8 turn and turned the stone a few more times.
I repeated this 8 times so that the barrel had rotated a full 360 degrees.
I feel this helps even out the material removal.
Anyway, when I was finished with using the stone a uniform and noticeable but not very deep countersink had been formed. Of course the edges where it met the bore and the rifling were still sharp.
I then used 220 grit silicone carbide (black) wet dry sandpaper to round and blend the sharp edges.
I placed a 1 X 1 inch piece of this on the muzzle and using the end of my thumb pushed the paper down into the bore.
Rotating my thumb back and forth and slowly rotating the barrel while I did this started the smoothing.
Before I was happy, I used at least 10 pieces of paper repeating this process.
I might add here that yes, at first the sharp rifling did bite into the paper but when I was finished the sharp edges of the rifling was sufficiently rounded so that they didn't tear the new pieces of paper.

Following this I repeated it using 320 and finally 600 grit paper.
All of the sharp edges are gone and the finish has a mirror like polish.

I dulled the sharp edges of the rifling by using my time proven method of wrapping #00 steel wool around my cleaning jag and running it up and down the bore about 100 times. During this 100 times I changed the steel wool about every 10-15 strokes.

Following all of this I can say it has never cut a patch.
 
Should you crown a fowler barrel?

I don't know! I have no experience withn smoothbore ml guns. I see that it has been brought up by another member though and that answer makes sense.
 
but I will take a slightly contrary stance. The methods you describe are on the aggressive side of barrel treatment IMHO.

That's an appropriate observation IMO. OTOH, I've had only success with the firelapping and crowning.

It doesn't take long to ruin a barrel with either an off-center, canted or wobbly cone (or with the nuts & bolt threads deeper inside the barrel) or abrade life away from good rifling with excessive fire lapping.

Of course the constant rotating of the barrel during the coning process is meant to prevent that very process. As far as the nuts and bolt in the bore go, you need to actually do this process to realize how minor that contact is.

The idea of destroying the rifling by firelapping has come up many times since I started firelapping both modern and ml barrels 16 years ago. There are those who swear that they know a guy who ruined their barrel by firelapping. I believe some of these stories and am also pretty sure they used a home made concoction. Usually valve grinding compound is recommended or in the end incriminated in these cases. And, some have told me that they have done a successful job of hand lapping using the valve grinding compounds but I'm certain that firelapping with too course a compound will wreck a barrel.

but I would advise to procede with caution and ONLY after shooting at least 300 rounds out of a new barrel to see how it breaks in normally.

I won't disagree with you on that but I will state that my first firelapping project was a GPR that had about 500 balls through it and was still beating up patches and throwing occasional wild flyers. Firelapping solved those problems. That experience convinced me that there was no point in spending the time and resources shooting to break in and since then my new, or newly acquired used, barrels are firelapped right off the bat.

Also, brand new T/C barrels (the ones I have owned, at least) are rough and full of tooling "chatter" marks. A firelapping may be the ticket. Also for a rusty or pitted bore. But to put a butter smooth when new L.C. Rice barrel up and lap it just because it looks interesting to try may do much more harm than good.

It's like taking antibiotics. You should be sick before hand. ;-)

My experience with the TC barrels has been similar but I'll add that their crowns are better than the GM crowns and while their bores are a bit rough, being button rifled they are not usually sharp. The Italian and Spanish barrels are the rough ones in my experience. Even after firelapping, the tool marks on the tops of the lands from the reaming of the barrel are very obvious. OTOH, those tool marks don't seem to do much harm other than holding fouling. It's the sharp edges left by the cut rifling process that does the patch damage, IMO. Also, their crowns seem to be a combination of cut and pressed or swaged in. Maybe form rushing the process with too much pressure or maybe the tooling is dull. All the Spanish, Italian and GM barrels I've examined carefully show that the very ends of the rifling at the muzzle have a slight raised area from the crowning process.

As far as the Rice barrel goes, That was one of the "custom" and "higher priced" barrels I was refering to. I could not agree with you more in the sense that if it's not broken, don't fix it. OTOH, I would be willing to state with certainity that firelapping one of these barrels will not harm it if compounds and procedures are studied and followed according to the producers instructions.

I suppose my response comes across as though I'm taking issue with your opinions but I assure you it's not so. Just kicking around my own hands on experiences as well as a few personally observed situations.

All of your observations and exceptions would be well worth careful consideration by anyone who decides to do any kind of bore or crown improvement to their barrel.
 
First rate thread, from top to bottom!
Thank you Marmotslayer :thumbsup:
Longshot
 
I built a .54 "Hawken" w/ a GM bbl and the patches were cutting w/ loads over 90 grs. 2f and the grouping was lousy as expected. After 30 swipes w/ green Scotchbrite wrapped around a cleaning jag, the groups now are excellent w/ my standard elk load of 120 grs.2f w/o any sign of patch cutting. Evidently the muzzle champfer was good and the strokes didn't leave the bore so the muzzle didn't bellmouth. Green Scotchbrite was recommended for this purpose by Don Getz, founder of Getz Barrel Co. and is a simple solution for eliminating some causes of cut patches. Worked great for me....Fred
 
I used a Scotch-brite pad around a bronze brush and J-B Paste to hand-lap my T/C New Englander to smooth the bore. I had a horrible time getting it to shoot round balls well and that did help, as did finding a suitable lube.
 
Good job on that post marmotslayer. I've fire lapped a number of muzzle loaders and cartridge revolvers with LBT compound and have had results that ranged from slight improvement to amazing improvement. Never had any suffer harm.

I do two things differently.

First - I use two 6 x 6 inch pieces of 1/4" plate glass to impregnate the bullets with the compound. It works really well and just about any glass place will give you the glass you need or sell it for very little.

Second - I clean the bore fully between each fire lapping shot. It takes a little longer and is a pain, but I don't want ANY fouling between the sides of the lapping bullet and the bore.

Even if you don't get any improvement in accuracy, it's amazing how much easier loading and cleaning a fire lapped bore is.
 
Stumpkiller said:
I used a Scotch-brite pad around a bronze brush and J-B Paste to hand-lap my T/C New Englander to smooth the bore. I had a horrible time getting it to shoot round balls well and that did help, as did finding a suitable lube.

Good to know Stumpkiller.... I was wonderign what I was gonna use to do the initial cleanup on barrel in my new GPR KIT. I've been debating about hand lapping or firelapping as I have the NECO kit that the came out about the same time as LPB kit - may be one in the same.

I've done the full cycle 200 to 1000 grit on a friends Ruger 30-06 stainless barrel. The barrel went from looking like a gravel driveway to a mirror... OIL Beaded on the interior! Not sure how much it helped accuracy, 'cuz it was a "loose bore" - IE: a jag and patch combo that you had trouble hammering through my .308 bore almost felt like pushing a .50 cal jag and patch down a .54 cal bore.... SHAAAALLLOOOOP! and it was out the other end! (A few jokes about "very friendly" women come to mind, but I refrain.... :redface:)
 
. . . initial cleanup . . .

With any brand new muzzleloader the first thing to do is clean the barrel with a solvent. Acetone or a product like brake or carbureator cleaner. This will remove all the heavy machining oils and "pickling" the factory has left in there for metal preservation. Be very careful not to get any on the stock. Then apply a light penetrating oil. Before I load I hit the bore with an alcohol damp cleaning patch to remove that oil.

Semisane makes a good point about loading. I'm lazy and don't like to carry a short starter or a range rod or have to battle with the rammer to seat a load. A smooth loading rifle is a joyful thing. Your next patched ball cleans the bore as it goes down, and fouling doesn't slow you down as much.

Marmotslayer - you presented an informative and helpful post and covered all the bases well. I just thought a "polite contrary" might keep the guys who should never disassemble a lawnmower engine or have never found the original hammer spring to their 1911 that went sailing across the dining room table from buggering up a bore.

It used to be a flogging offense in the British Army for a soldier to remove the lock from a Bess. Only sergeants were allowed to have screwdrivers. :wink:
 
I have long experience fire lapping modern cartridge rifle barrels. Have used the NECO kit and Tubb kits on M1, M14 and M16 clone barrels for DCM and NRA competition. Saw many examples where a so-so barrel became a winner, including some barrels with over 1000 rounds on them.

So, when the 58 cal Green Mtn barrel I put on a TC Renegade to shoot in the Colorado Big Bore Champs proved to be a ticking shredder even after two boxes of balls, I cast up 50 Lee Improved Minie slugs in a borrowed mold. Charged 10 with 400 grit, and 15 with 600. Fired these, cleaning well with Shooters Choice Lead Remover after each shot. Then I polished the crown using the time honored method of charging a marble with compound and rolling it around with the palm of my hand. She's a shooter now!

White Fox
 

Latest posts

Back
Top