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American Pioneer Powder vs 777 vs BlackMag'3
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Tahquamenon
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APP only compares to BM'3 and 777 in that it's a powder that you can dump in the barrel.
Otherwise, I found APP to be weak, inconsistant and very hydroscopic (subseptible to moisture).
I bought some awhile back, shot one pound and gave the rest away.
Harsh critique, but APP is among the worst powder's I've shot.
I'm sure you will find a few fans of APP though.
:imo:
Otherwise, I found APP to be weak, inconsistant and very hydroscopic (subseptible to moisture).
I bought some awhile back, shot one pound and gave the rest away.
Harsh critique, but APP is among the worst powder's I've shot.
I'm sure you will find a few fans of APP though.
:imo:
Landngroove
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I have been shooting American Pioneer Powder, and I agree with Tahquamenon, that it seems weaker than other powders, I have shot. However, I have not seen any chronographed results on this. It seems to have less recoil, and muzzle blast than Goex, or Pyrodex, with the same grain loads, but it does clean up easily, has less fouling, and is accurate. I have had no problems with moisture, and some of my powder, is at least a year old. Unfortunatly, Black Mag is not available in my area, and from what I've read about 777, it sounds like it is just a more powerful Pyrodex, so I have not shot these powders.
APP is the worst commercially successful powder I ever heard of according to lots of reports. Some people like it. Limited shelf life after opening.
777 is hot stuff. If you decide to try it, get the 2f, not the 3f. I cracked my Hawken stock in two places while testing 3f right after it came out. It cleans up easy. It will seize the threads on cleanout screws, nipples, and breech plugs if a good grease is not used. Once it is burned, the fouling draws moisture just as bad as black does. There is less of the fouling tho. It is harder to set off than black by a pretty good margin. I loaded my flinter with 3f and thought I was going to have to pull the load because it would not go off. I finally got it to shoot. The harder ignition and speed make it a mostly inline powder. It is not reliable in damp hunting weather using a sidelock and number 11's.
Black Mag is getting mixed reviews. It appears to have a limited shelf life after being opened. Speeds change from shot to shot pretty bad using the early offerings. Maybe this has gotten better.
777 is not a hotter version of Pyrodex. It is in a class all by itself. Some people say some lots of Swiss are that hot, but I really doubt it. For those in areas where black is becoming impossible to buy, 777 or Pyrodex seem to be the best choices. Of the two, 777 is the better choice by a wide margin.
777 is hot stuff. If you decide to try it, get the 2f, not the 3f. I cracked my Hawken stock in two places while testing 3f right after it came out. It cleans up easy. It will seize the threads on cleanout screws, nipples, and breech plugs if a good grease is not used. Once it is burned, the fouling draws moisture just as bad as black does. There is less of the fouling tho. It is harder to set off than black by a pretty good margin. I loaded my flinter with 3f and thought I was going to have to pull the load because it would not go off. I finally got it to shoot. The harder ignition and speed make it a mostly inline powder. It is not reliable in damp hunting weather using a sidelock and number 11's.
Black Mag is getting mixed reviews. It appears to have a limited shelf life after being opened. Speeds change from shot to shot pretty bad using the early offerings. Maybe this has gotten better.
777 is not a hotter version of Pyrodex. It is in a class all by itself. Some people say some lots of Swiss are that hot, but I really doubt it. For those in areas where black is becoming impossible to buy, 777 or Pyrodex seem to be the best choices. Of the two, 777 is the better choice by a wide margin.
Tahquamenon
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FYI, I've not noticed any degredation after opening a jug of BM'3. I've shot just over three pounds of BM'3 since last October and it's been nothing shy of excellent for me.
777 3F does have a very sharp recoil. I prefer the 3F over the 2F for cleanliness and improved ignition. I've shot many pounds of 777 3F in my sidelock percussions with never an ignition or equipment problem. With 777 2F, I've had some intermittent ingition problems with #11 caps.
I'm still a big fan of 777 3F.
I've shot both APP loose and their stick/pellets. Both of which I found to be really the worst I have ever shot. I'd rather shoot pyrodex over APP and I can't stand pyrodex.
:m2c:
I was doing experiments with it when it first came out. I was shooting Hornady Great Plains 385's over 3f 777. I pushed it a little too far and the wedge plate was pulled loose on the right side, allowing the end of the wedge to move. It was pulled up and pushed the stock apart enough to crack it down the ramrod channel. That was at 120 grains, which is well past where I should have been. My worry is that in guns less well assembled the damage point would be lower. This was in a CVA Hawken rifle that was in very good condition. 100 grains of powder under a 385 is a common 50 caliber hunting load. Either way, the recoil from the 3f is punishing under heavy conicals unless you cut way back on the powder. If you are going to do that, then there are a lot of cheaper choices that will produce the same velocity. I took my 36 to the lake farm and hunted for days using 3f in it. It is ok if the gun is shot often, and then cleanmed pretty well between shots. It is not ok for a full day hunt in very damp weather or for a full day huint in damp weather where the gun has been fired. The fouling draws moisture as bad as black does and it is harder to ignite. If you are using it in a sidelock for hunting, put a couple of grains under the nipple to be sure. The fouling can form hard bumps in dry weather. In damp weather it very rapidly turns to a runny sludge. One of the posters on another board did experiments with steel plate that had a little of each powder burned on it and was then left open to the atmosphere. The 777 fouling actually attracted visable droplets quite quickly. It is less corrosive, not having the sulpher content, but it draws moisture bad. I can buy 3f black for half the price. Other than cleaning, there doesn't seem to be a big advantage to 777, and it is harder to ignite. I moved to using black in all of my guns after considering what I found. I can still buy black over the counter close by. Lots of folks can't. I shot Pyrodex P for a lot of years. Given the choice between 777 or P, it is a hard choice. Both can have ignition problems. The fouling on the 777 draws moisture faster, but both do so. The 777 uses smaller loads, but the P is less dense making it pretty much a tie for number of shots. The added price of the 777 buys you a less corrosive powder that cleans up easier.
The Black Mag feedback was from early lots. Maybe it will turn out to be the top replacement over time. It is going to have to get a lot cheaper to become attractive to most folks. I have returned to 3f black in every gun I shoot, including my 12 guage. My experimenting is done except for the fact that I want to try some Swiss!
The Black Mag feedback was from early lots. Maybe it will turn out to be the top replacement over time. It is going to have to get a lot cheaper to become attractive to most folks. I have returned to 3f black in every gun I shoot, including my 12 guage. My experimenting is done except for the fact that I want to try some Swiss!
Had very good results with Black Mag 3 in .54 GPR and in 10 ga. shotgun. Also experimented with Pinnacle Powder in the GPR and results were also good. If I were to shoot substitutes in percussion muzzleloader, it would be either one of these. Black Mag the cleanest and most expensive, Pinnacle almost as clean and less expensive. :m2c:
A. Pioneer is pretty weak- particularly in the small calibers. Our 31 pocket models were clocking 300 fps range and bouncing off of just about every thing with full charges of it. I wouldn't say it's useless because it does clean up easily and is probably pretty nice for people who want to use mild loads without resorting to fillers.
H777 seems to react badly to any degree of compression. I've read off velocity extremes of over 200 fps in some loadings in revolvers. Taking care to do little more than setting a ball down on top the powder column, I've had good consistency in some revolvers. H777 at a 15 grain /volumn level performs about like 20 grains of pyrodex in my Lepage. A 20 grain measure does about the same as 30 of pyrodex p in a lyman 50 plains pistol. These are both very accurate loads.
The 3fSwiss powder sometimes equals h777 and usually produces velocities higher than Pyrodex P.
H777 seems to react badly to any degree of compression. I've read off velocity extremes of over 200 fps in some loadings in revolvers. Taking care to do little more than setting a ball down on top the powder column, I've had good consistency in some revolvers. H777 at a 15 grain /volumn level performs about like 20 grains of pyrodex in my Lepage. A 20 grain measure does about the same as 30 of pyrodex p in a lyman 50 plains pistol. These are both very accurate loads.
The 3fSwiss powder sometimes equals h777 and usually produces velocities higher than Pyrodex P.
Ah'd say whan yer guns start kracken yer stocks it are tryin ta tel ye somethin.
Ah's also say whan yer gun givs a sharp kick lik a modurn gun does, yer chambar prusser is a hel of a lot higher than most muzzloadars are built ta handel.
Go easy out thar you guys. We domt' wan ta looose any o' hour memmbers or see um huurt!!!!
Iffen ye wants mudern guns powwer, than gets yerself a nice .300 short Mag. :shocking:
Happy shootin to ye!
Ah's also say whan yer gun givs a sharp kick lik a modurn gun does, yer chambar prusser is a hel of a lot higher than most muzzloadars are built ta handel.
Go easy out thar you guys. We domt' wan ta looose any o' hour memmbers or see um huurt!!!!
Iffen ye wants mudern guns powwer, than gets yerself a nice .300 short Mag. :shocking:
Happy shootin to ye!
Thanks for the heads up on the compression. I've been loadin' 777 like it was pyrodox and wasn't likin' the groups I was gettin. I've no access to BM3, and all the American Pioneer comes in sticks around here. I'd rather try loose powder thank'ee very much.
I only shot those loads during the early tests. I backed off to about 70 grains in the Hawken under a round ball. If it was easier to ignite, 777 would be just about top choice in a replacement powder. As it is, I have about a pound of 3f left that never gets used much anymore. I use it with the 36 when we are all at the range BS'ing and the squirrel rifle is getting worked as fast as I can load it. I don't have to swab at all if I use pre-lubed patches shooting 30 grain loads and at 50 yards the balls are still splatting into little pieces on the steel swingers.
On the split stock issue, I spent the early part of the day practicing cutting barrel channels in 2x4's. When I get the entire process down, I will go find some nice wood. The router bits I have will cut a perfect 15/16ths barrel channel in 5 passes if I don't do something stupid. The Hawken is going to be the first one with a stock I made myself. I will get a new 2x4 and only cut the good wood after the setup for each cut is tested. I can get nice walnut locally, but will have to order it if I decide on Maple. The gun will never be PC, so nice wood is all that is needed for it. Once it is done, then the Mountain rifle is next!
On the split stock issue, I spent the early part of the day practicing cutting barrel channels in 2x4's. When I get the entire process down, I will go find some nice wood. The router bits I have will cut a perfect 15/16ths barrel channel in 5 passes if I don't do something stupid. The Hawken is going to be the first one with a stock I made myself. I will get a new 2x4 and only cut the good wood after the setup for each cut is tested. I can get nice walnut locally, but will have to order it if I decide on Maple. The gun will never be PC, so nice wood is all that is needed for it. Once it is done, then the Mountain rifle is next!
I was shooting Pioneer at 100 yds an actually found my bullets laying on the ground 20 feet from the target. When shooting at close range it is a very accurate powder and actually better than anything else on the market, but beyond 50 yds it is probably the worst.
Yup. There are a lot of centerfire guns out there that will stomp the manure out of the shooter.
These guns teach folks neat things like:
Closing their eyes before they squeeze the trigger!
Pulling their head back right before firing so the scope doesn't poke a big bloody circle around their right eye!
The ole automatic flinch that improves the accuracy so much.
Nothing like a big bruise to proove to folks how Macho you are Ah says.
Some folks come out to the range and take one look at my guns and shake their heads. Then they proceed to shoot their .300 SuperMagnum Knockumdead 8 times, rub their shoulder, brag about how hard the kick stomped their shoulder and how big the bruise is going to be, and leave.
I bet if they knew I could load up my smokepole so that 8 shots were all I could stand, they would start getting interested in muzzleloading. ::
These guns teach folks neat things like:
Closing their eyes before they squeeze the trigger!
Pulling their head back right before firing so the scope doesn't poke a big bloody circle around their right eye!
The ole automatic flinch that improves the accuracy so much.
Nothing like a big bruise to proove to folks how Macho you are Ah says.
Some folks come out to the range and take one look at my guns and shake their heads. Then they proceed to shoot their .300 SuperMagnum Knockumdead 8 times, rub their shoulder, brag about how hard the kick stomped their shoulder and how big the bruise is going to be, and leave.
I bet if they knew I could load up my smokepole so that 8 shots were all I could stand, they would start getting interested in muzzleloading. ::
zonie aint it true IF i shoot center fire i will not shoot aney thing biger than a 6 ppc my frends think im a girl but il out shoot them all day with a 17 mach 4 and off hand out to 50 with a 62 flint i wont shoot a 06 and gave my 12 g slug gun to my cousen let his fillings fall out
Smokin6Gun
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Ah'd say whan yer guns start kracken yer stocks it are tryin ta tel ye somethin.
Ah's also say whan yer gun givs a sharp kick lik a modurn gun does, yer chambar prusser is a hell of a lot higher than most muzzloadars are built ta handel.
Go easy out thar you guys. We domt' wan ta looose any o' hour memmbers or see um huurt!!!!
Iffen ye wants mudern guns powwer, than gets yerself a nice .300 short Mag. :shocking:
Happy shootin to ye!
Zonie, I'm readin' this here stuff an' wondern' why thar' makin a smokpole so complicated. Ingedients: Shootin tool, Black Powder, Pillar tickin, Ball, lube, Caps. Pour it shoot it check yur patch for burns or tears, after you see what you hit or missed. Do it 5 times if it works good ... if not more or less powder. Do it again. Black powder is more consistant in a seasoned barrel. No synthetic will ever duplicate it or the expiriance of shootin' it. Some a my best groups were 55gr in a .50 Tennessee Poorboy from Dixie Gun Works. Chrono hell, my chrono was droppin a Wild Bore at 75 yds. And hittin' a 9 outta 10 in a walkthrough course shootin 60gr FFg outta a .58 Zouave with a Mini ball at 200yds. That's the Old way and I been doin it that way 25 yrs.
:front:
Catof9tails
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There is a lot of preferences of different powders in the above posts. Best I can tell from the posts, American Pioneer Powder(APP) is not the preferred powder. It seems that APP has a lesser punch than other powders mentioned.
At this point, I have only used Pyrodex RS in my Lyman GPH Rifle - percussion. I've been looking for another substitute and still not sure of which substitute to use after reading this post and other posts on powders. So I figure, experience is the best policy and ordered through a local gunsmith, black mag 3(BM3) and APP.
When the job and weather allows, I'll test these powders and come back and give my review. But I'll put a twist on BM3 and APP by using a CCI #11 Magnum cap due to the powders hard ignition qualities.
Just my thought. Heck, I'm still new to this smokepole thing and still trying to learn. All comments are much appreciated.
Cat9
At this point, I have only used Pyrodex RS in my Lyman GPH Rifle - percussion. I've been looking for another substitute and still not sure of which substitute to use after reading this post and other posts on powders. So I figure, experience is the best policy and ordered through a local gunsmith, black mag 3(BM3) and APP.
When the job and weather allows, I'll test these powders and come back and give my review. But I'll put a twist on BM3 and APP by using a CCI #11 Magnum cap due to the powders hard ignition qualities.
Just my thought. Heck, I'm still new to this smokepole thing and still trying to learn. All comments are much appreciated.
Cat9
Pyrodex is good stuff. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder but this usually shows up on the first shot when there is still some residual oil or something in the fire channel. For most positive first shot ignition with single loaders, I sometimes remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of pyrodex into the snail. AFter that, duds and hang-fires are rare.
Gleason.Chapman
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This picture is of AM Pioneer Powder shot thru 13" of pack TopSoil in a 5 gallon bucket, simulates expansion thru muscle and flesh, but not bone.
http://www.the-gleasons.com/tcshockwave.htm
I was shooting 100g, at 25 yards--so I wouldn't miss the 5 gallon bucket. I like APP so far, but I make no claim as to being "an expert" at powders, MLs or shooting in general. In fact until this experiment, I always sighted my ML in around Sept/Oct and hunted with it in Nov, >>never<< shot it off season. This year I am going to shoot Omega in Rifle season, I am that confident in my ability to hit and kill with the loads, bullets I have selected.
I like the APP over pyrodex pellets, cleaner. Seems to shoot same to me, I don't have a chrono, but I see where Cabelas has one for $99 so I am going to get one sometime soon for my compund and ML, since I want to know what it shooting. I can't tell difference in power. I only have about 1/4 lb left of AP, but I have a brand new bottle of 777 3G, so I am going to switch to that since I bought it and hate to waste money. Never used loose until this testing, always pyrodex pellets. 777 pellets last year. So I am a learning about this. The fact that Taq.... (can't spell his name) like BM3 and does a lot of shooting speaks volumes to me, he does it for a reason. I have not seen the moisture problem, but I have not been hunting with this, so shooting then reloading a dirty gun in the rain is the big test. I have had absolutely NO problems with Knight Disc or Omega in the Rain with 777 pellets, downpours. In fact I have gotten a couple of nice bucks in the rain with my ML, so I am "prone" to go back to what I know works. If I can find a can of BM3 in Winchester Va, then I will try it, because of this forum and the convictions of the folks here, they don't take their shooting lightly.
Chap Gleason VA
http://www.the-gleasons.com/tcshockwave.htm
I was shooting 100g, at 25 yards--so I wouldn't miss the 5 gallon bucket. I like APP so far, but I make no claim as to being "an expert" at powders, MLs or shooting in general. In fact until this experiment, I always sighted my ML in around Sept/Oct and hunted with it in Nov, >>never<< shot it off season. This year I am going to shoot Omega in Rifle season, I am that confident in my ability to hit and kill with the loads, bullets I have selected.
I like the APP over pyrodex pellets, cleaner. Seems to shoot same to me, I don't have a chrono, but I see where Cabelas has one for $99 so I am going to get one sometime soon for my compund and ML, since I want to know what it shooting. I can't tell difference in power. I only have about 1/4 lb left of AP, but I have a brand new bottle of 777 3G, so I am going to switch to that since I bought it and hate to waste money. Never used loose until this testing, always pyrodex pellets. 777 pellets last year. So I am a learning about this. The fact that Taq.... (can't spell his name) like BM3 and does a lot of shooting speaks volumes to me, he does it for a reason. I have not seen the moisture problem, but I have not been hunting with this, so shooting then reloading a dirty gun in the rain is the big test. I have had absolutely NO problems with Knight Disc or Omega in the Rain with 777 pellets, downpours. In fact I have gotten a couple of nice bucks in the rain with my ML, so I am "prone" to go back to what I know works. If I can find a can of BM3 in Winchester Va, then I will try it, because of this forum and the convictions of the folks here, they don't take their shooting lightly.
Chap Gleason VA
