Alternate Hawken options

[Rat]

I've said it before, but I've found that long guns in the eight pound range (8.25# my ideal) comfortable to carry all day, when they get up to nine, still doable but noticeable, and ten and up can be fatigue "inducing". I do take my 1861 out once or twice a year, as I just love it so much (!!!!) and find that if I carry it over my shoulder, and switch shoulders often, it's not so bad.

What you carry on a regular basis, will seem lighter over time...just like the first time you do push-ups, you might do ten, but do them on a regular basis, and you might do 50. If I only hunted with the 1861, eventually it would "seem" as "handy" as my Bess Carbine or Jeager. I'm sure a ten pound Hawken did not "seem" so heavy to a Mountain Man, when he carried it every day. Just like the dudes that carried their M1's all over Europe for four years, you become "conditioned" to a heavy rifle over time. Way less conditioning taking place when we just carry our rifles once a year during a hunting season.

I can't see going under 30" on a barrel, but that's just me. I don't believe it makes a long gun more "handy". It will reduce weight, but I don't think it will handle as well. I'm sure some people are "sensitive" to how a rifle handles and balances, some not. I have one .58 carbine, forget the barrel length, 26"-28", something like that, and I rarely use it. I think short rifles give a false "sense of handiness". ??

I'm not sure about "the lighter the better". I am sure about "the better the balance, the better". The better a long gun handles, the more "handy" it will be. I'd prefer a eight pound rifle that balances well, over a stubby 25" butt-heavy, muzzle light, seven pound or less rifle/smoothbore.

I use larger calibers, loaded heavy, so I'm not sure about embracing the increased recoil of a seven pound rifle...and I'm not really recoil sensitive. Five and six pound rifles will really kick, I'm not sure why someone would want one, unless indeed you only weighed 100 pounds or less....but then again, if you are that light, then recoil will really be an issue. (generally speaking, some small people can handle recoil well)

Anyhow, in my experience, (I have hunted for many years with many-many different unmentionable rifles of different sizes and weights, (and I'm not a "stay close to the truck or camp hunter" sometimes I cover ground and climb mountains) besides different weight/length ML's, and I've found, for my 6'X180# frame, that eight pounds is the "sweet spot", all things considered, and that 30" is the sweet spot on barrel length.

Of course, your results may vary!

 

[arcticap]

Everyone lives and hunts in a different climate.
Our season runs the 10 days leading up until Christmas.
There can be frozen ice conditions or only mildly cold.
Thick layered winter clothing makes the gun stock longer and helps cushion the recoil of hunting loads from a light gun.
Double set triggers usually don't even leave enough room for wearing gloves which makes single trigger guns more popular.
Lighter guns with plastic stocks make a lot of sense when their LOP is 1-2 inches longer due to the heavy clothing.
With the strength of modern steel, BP barrels really don't need to have 1 inch flats as if they were made from wrought iron.
I think that they're made with a heavy barrel profile mostly to appear more traditional.
All that extra weight can turn people away from the sport who may rather shoot a carbine length rifle.
Traditional .50's don't get much shorter or lighter than the 24" Deerhunter ultra light.
Although I do have a 13/16" diameter Pedersoli made .50, you can't find that barrel profile made in .50 anymore even though it was proofed to be safe.
Gun weight should be a matter of choice but the lack of affordable lightweight sidelock models have narrowed options over the years and everyone knows why.
Pedersoli wants people to pay for expensive wood when they could build some guns with plastic stocks but they just won't make them.
The major companies don't even make a kid size sidelock model anymore.

 

[Rat]

Oh yeah, you are preaching to the choir. I'd love to see lighter barrels...I chose .62 caliber for my Jeager, because that was the lightest barrel weight, in that barrel size...just due to the bigger hole. I came close to choosing .58", as I already had a ton of .58 stuff, but went with the lighter .62". (and we are only talking ounces here...I can shoot .58"s in the .62 with a denim patch) If I could have got that barrel in .66", or even .69" I would have done it. I sure don't strive to make/want a rifle to be any heavier than it needs to be.

I'm glad Pedersoli won't make plastic stocks...I hate plastic stocks. (I know, some would like them) I think there might be better ways to make a lighter rifle than going the way of the inline crowd. When I hunt, I like to be able to admire my rifle when I sit down, really appreciate it. A plastic stock would really ruin that for me. I certainly don't choose ML's to hunt with as a path to the lightest rifle possible, easy to load and take care of, etc. If I wanted that, I could put a plastic stock on my Ruger .44 mag carbine, have a 5.75# rifle (or less) and just stop in the store and buy a box of shells, if lightness, easy-ness, and the kill was more important than the hunt.

I don't think light is a bad thing in it's self, but I think the concept can be taken too far. And again, maybe someone would be more happy hunting the regular seasons with a feather weight bolt rifle in 7X57mm than any ML, even one that has been perverted into something that just loads from the muzzle, for the sake of extreme light weight. ??

With hunting gear on, heart pumping, shooting at a big animal, recoil not a concern. Truth. Sometimes I wonder if I had a squib load or something. But, I can't help wondering if maybe there is something to the suck, when we chase lightness to the extreme of five and six pound rifles.

We don't just hunt in different climates, but under different conditions. A .50 caliber in 13/16"s would make a beautiful light rifle. On the other hand, I hunt in a grizzly recovery area, (and just recently came across some GIANT, brown-bear size track) and feel the need for something much bigger than .50". So conditions, terrain, and Grizzly bears can figure into it too.

Our seasons run from first of September, to up until Christmas, so too short of a LOP is not great for those hot September days. Anyhow, don't disagree, just seeing the lines beginning to blur between traditional and modern firearms.

 

[WRustyLane]

Everyone lives and hunts in a different climate.
Our season runs the 10 days leading up until Christmas.
There can be frozen ice conditions or only mildly cold.
Thick layered winter clothing makes the gun stock longer and helps cushion the recoil of hunting loads from a light gun.
Double set triggers usually don't even leave enough room for wearing gloves which makes single trigger guns more popular.
Lighter guns with plastic stocks make a lot of sense when their LOP is 1-2 inches longer due to the heavy clothing.
With the strength of modern steel, BP barrels really don't need to have 1 inch flats as if they were made from wrought iron.
I think that they're made with a heavy barrel profile mostly to appear more traditional.
All that extra weight can turn people away from the sport who may rather shoot a carbine length rifle.
Traditional .50's don't get much shorter or lighter than the 24" Deerhunter ultra light.
Although I do have a 13/16" diameter Pedersoli made .50, you can't find that barrel profile made in .50 anymore even though it was proofed to be safe.
Gun weight should be a matter of choice but the lack of affordable lightweight sidelock models have narrowed options over the years and everyone knows why.
Pedersoli wants people to pay for expensive wood when they could build some guns with plastic stocks but they just won't make them.
The major companies don't even make a kid size sidelock model anymore.

On yer .50 Pedersoli, which model are you referring? The Frontier or Blue Ridge? I guess I need to measure my Frontier (Blue Ridge) across the flats and weigh it. I know that it has always felt heavy at the muzzle, not really balanced well. But then, I do manage.

 

[arcticap]

On yer .50 Pedersoli, which model are you referring? The Frontier or Blue Ridge? I guess I need to measure my Frontier (Blue Ridge) across the flats and weigh it. I know that it has always felt heavy at the muzzle, not really balanced well. But then, I do manage.

It's a mule ear half-stock that Pedersoli made for Navy Arms with about a 26" barrel length.

 

[WRustyLane]

Wow! That's an interesting Pedersoli rifle. Don't think I'd ever seen one of those. How's the balance? Is it muzzle heavy?

 

[arcticap]

.
Our seasons run from first of September, to up until Christmas, so too short of a LOP is not great for those hot September days. Anyhow, don't disagree, just seeing the lines beginning to blur between traditional and modern firearms.

Look at the TC Tree Hawk with a camo plastic stock and about a 21" barrel.
Someone here just had Hoyt re-rifle one into a .58.
It was probably made for handy tree stand hunting or close brush stalking in mind.
In some of the thick eastern woods, we're lucky to be able to take a 75 yard shot with so many branches and trees in the way.
And that's by the time winter rolls around and the leaves are down.
We also have these mountain laurel thickets that the deer hide and bed down in that stay green and leafy.

 

[arcticap]

Wow! That's an interesting Pedersoli rifle. Don't think I'd ever seen one of those. How's the balance? Is it muzzle heavy?

No.not muzzle heavy at all.
It's about the same as a TC Seneca or just a little bit lighter due to the lighter stock and barrel.

 

[arcticap]

Wow! That's an interesting Pedersoli rifle. Don't think I'd ever seen one of those. How's the balance? Is it muzzle heavy?

I think that the closest model that Pedersoli makes to it now is their Country Hunter .50 at 5.75 lbs in both flint and percussion.
The only problem is the cost [$675 at Cherry's] and the twist rate which is 1 in 34" which means that it's not really a PRB twist.
It has a 28 3/8" barrel length.--->>> https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_42/rifles-country-hunter.html

Do they really need to make the stock out of walnut? What about using a less expensive wood or laminate?

 

[SDSmlf]

.....about a 21" barrel.
Someone here just had Hoyt re-rifle one into a .58.
It was probably made for handy tree stand hunting or close brush stalking in mind.
In some of the thick eastern woods, we're lucky to be able to take a 75 yard shot with so many branches and trees in the way.

Here in North Carolina, we are blessed with a long deer season (early September until January 1st), however, the trees don’t give up their leaves until some time in November. A real shooting obstacle. Actual ‘muzzleloader season’ is two weeks in October or early November, depending on where in the state you are. During ML season where I hunt, 75 yards is a very long shot.

Currently have two 58 TCs with 26” barrels, one each in flint and percussion. These have been my go to tree stand and still hunting guns. Have thought about going shorter, as I have the donor barrels, but not sure there is much to gain.

Starting a build of a 62 cal Jeager with a 31” swamped Rice barrel that will likely move into the number one spot. I know, going a bit off topic. Had previously built one and loved it. Made the mistake of offering a muzzleloader to a nephew, told him to take his pick. He never actually previously shot that particular gun, but it is his now. Wanted to cry when he took it, not because he took it, but because he wanted it. All parts for replacement build are here.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

a 1/34 twist 50 cal. will shoot very very accurate with a sabot and a 250 grain 45 pistol bullet. it will also shoot the various hunting bullets made by various co. also im sure with 50 grains of black and a well patched .495 round ball it will shoot very very well that also. i would call that gun a all around well made muzzleloader for hunting.

 

[sgeisz]

TV and movies never show the way rifles were actually carried horseback. The Hawken at the JM Davis museum shows much wear at the wrist and mainly on the lower forearm where it rested across the saddle. Also other heavy plains rifles. And pistol/ holster are worn around the waist, never shown hanging over the saddle horn.

Many originals have a brass plate inlet just where they had been carried over the saddle.

 

[sgeisz]

Take a few moments and read up on Henry Leman, he made plains rifles by the dozen, as well as flintlock mountain rifles for the American Indian, many rifles were .58+ caliber.
Fred

I have an original Henry Leman Lancaster Pennsylvania halfstock percussion rifle. Pewter nose cap, dst, cap box, 38 Cal, 38" 15/16 barrel. Old brazed repair to hammer. My prize.

 

[Bad Karma]

It's a mule ear half-stock that Pedersoli made for Navy Arms with about a 26" barrel length.

View attachment 9106 View attachment 9107

These are really great little rifles, I don’t recall where I bought mine but it was pretty well built, a bit plain but sporting a good straight grained piece of European walnut. It was accurate but you really wouldn’t want much more than 80 grains behind a round ball or it would beat the living daylights out of the shooter.

 

[Rat]

I think that the closest model that Pedersoli makes to it now is their Country Hunter .50 at 5.75 lbs in both flint and percussion.
The only problem is the cost [$675 at Cherry's] and the twist rate which is 1 in 34" which means that it's not really a PRB twist.
It has a 28 3/8" barrel length.--->>> https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_42/rifles-country-hunter.html

Do they really need to make the stock out of walnut? What about using a less expensive wood or laminate?

View attachment 9108

I think the laminate stocks are usually a bit heavier, I "think", not positive.

 

[TheDegenerateBarber]

I found a TC White Mountain Carbine on a used rack a while back. It was in mint condition for $300 and in 54 caliber. It’s nice and lite, easy to carry and dead on with round ball and the heavier buffalo business. It has a traditional look, but is not your grandfather’s rifle. Makes a pretty good bear gun to boot. They can be found for between 200-300$ on the used market.

 

[Rat]

That Country Hunter is a cute little rifle. I wonder if they couldn't get that ram-rod to lay up under the barrel, instead of hanging there in space. ??

For hunting, I'm still not sold on ultra-light rifles, light is good but I don't find any discomfort or fatigue packing around something in the eight pound range all day. But that would be a cool rifle for exploring, or cross-country map and compass "bush-whacking" which I love to do. You know just hiking around on a nice summer day, into remote areas of the hunting territory that I usually don't get to, not wanting to drag a deer out, or drag four elk quarters like five or six miles out of the woods.

I do have some ultra-light unmentionable long guns that fit the bill, in the high five and six pound range, but a muzzle loader just feel more "right", and natural in my hands anymore.

 

[arcticap]

Nowdays you never know if the product info. is even correct.
Especially when it involves translating languages and converting metric to the American weight system.
That gun seemed to be light for a 28" barrel with a walnut stock.
So I did the Google conversion for the 2.7 Kg. that's listed in the Pedersoli spec's and sure enough, it converts to 5.95 lbs. and not 5.75 lbs. as Pedersoli listed.
That means that Pedersoli fudged the weight by almost 1/4 lb. and it's basically a 6 lb. rifle.

A bunch of rifles have a lowered ramrod holder.
Other light guns often have the same style, or in the case of the Crockett rifle, the ramrod is slightly angled down.
I think that it's done to bypass the wedge, and on hunting half-stocks the holder is often used for a sling swivel mount.
The Deerhunter, the Bobcat, PA Pellet flintlock, and some Pedersoli's use a thick mount for the ramrod ferrule to lower the ramrod.
The ramrod enters the stock straight and not at an angle.
Then the ramrod doesn't need to bend, or be located very close to the muzzle.
That leaves some room for a specialty conical-loading accessory tip if desired that can be left on the ramrod.

 

[45man]

Many originals have a brass plate inlet just where they had been carried over the saddle.

Actually the plates were put on to hide a drill through from the ramrod hole. My friend did it when his long drill hit the barrel hold in tang for the pin. I had told him to remove them from the barrel first. You need to clamp or wrap the barrel in with surgical tubing instead of pinning it. The old timers made mistakes too.

 

[45man]

I empathize with heavy rifles. I carried my heavy rifles up and down steep hills in PA, southern Ohio and WV. Then I got old as dirt. Even bringing a rifle into a tree stand needs a rope instead of a string. But I will be darned if I will quit. Just need to adjust over time.
But one thing still bothers me to see is the need to pound a ball down and "wang" the rod. Powder can go off with impact, even smokeless. PLEASE just push against powder once seated.