Advantages/Disadvantages Of A Double Coned Flash-Hole Liner

[ebiggs1]

“Speed cannot be accurately determined "by ear" unless there is a gross difference.”

Although I basically agree with this statement Mr. Phariss, I do have a system that I have a lot of faith in. I use my two adult sons. I load guns out of sight and let them shoot and tell me the results. We shoot multiple times as to eliminate their guessing.
We did this little test on 4f powder as the prime for instance. Either they are good guessers or you can actually tell the difference in using 4f prime. It would not be as easy to test touch hole liners but I suppose it could be done. Food for thought!

 

[fitter]

Bird, you are right about the WL liner being too thin to do that. I've used the screw slot liners as well, lightly touching with a countersink or drill to help with the slot. Otherwise the slot becomes a fowling trap. Don't use those anymore.I use a WL or make one these days. I want to try the inside coning tool Snyder makes. Replace with WL when the hole burns out. He makes them that way on purpose, same inside cone.

 

[fitter]

Just buy a TC then. You are not much older than me. I just know what an Armstrong looks like. Did you ever see one? Doesn't sound like it :rotf:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

“Speed cannot be accurately determined "by ear" unless there is a gross difference.”

Although I basically agree with this statement Mr. Phariss, I do have a system. . . . . . . It would not be as easy to test touch hole liners but I suppose it could be done. Food for thought!

I timed a series of vents with the help of Dan Phariss. he provided a number of liners with holes for as spanner wrench so they could be removed and replaced with others. We added Spanner holes to a few others. I fun experiment.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[Dphar]

I would only use a liner coned on the inside ( Chambers). A cone on the outside just becomes a fowling trap. 32" is way too short for an Armstrong, whose guns are long barreled and slim. Would look terrible, IMO.

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I agree that a 32-inches is really "short" for an Armstrong/Emmitsburg... however, I want the shorter barrel for the weight savings (I'm almost 75 and not as strong as I once was) plus that's a barrel I "rescued" from another, damaged rifle... and I can't afford to put any more money out for a new, longer barrel even if I wanted a longer barrel which I don't.

In addition, it is likely I'll hunt deer with it... and in the woods, I'd prefer a shorter, lighter flintlock rifle... again due to my age and physical condition. If I were a strapping, youthful lad like you, I'd have a 40-42 inch barrel and very likely a much heavier rifle, but I'm not a young buck like you and many others here... I'm the resident "OLD GUY"... so show me some "respect", you young WHIPPERSNAPPER!!!(Said in a Walter Brennan "lisp") Hahahahahahahaha... :rotf:

As far as how it will "look"... I don't agree with you.

I believe it will look very nice the way I intend to make it with the slender, well-figured curly maple++ stock (which I already have) and the small Siler lock (which I already have). Yes, it will be shorter than the normal Armstrong, but proportionally-scaled and still very "nice"... in MHO.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

The "B" weight swamped barrels in 50 caliber are very light and in fact almost too light for the caliber with some stock designs.
Weights run about 4 pounds in lengths from 37 to 44".
A Green Mountain 44" swamp trimmed 4" at the breech and 1" at the muzzle is very light. My swivel breech barrels were made this way and with 2 barrels and extra metal in the action and a 2" wide buttplate and dense maple only weighs 11 pounds and balances at this point.

So don't be too quick the assume a longer barrel is too heavy. Though I understand your concerns.
Dan

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Dan, you said "speed cannot be accurately determined by ear". Well I'm not so sure, I've known fellows in the Army who could copy Morse code by ear at 60 words per minute. That's 300 letters per minute, each letter being composed of one to four dots and dashes, plus a space between dots and dashes and a longer space between letters. That means they were discerning, by ear, the difference between a dot and a dash sent at the rate of about 15 per second. And all of them agreed the limiting factor was not the ability to discern the letters but the ability of the fingers to keep up on the typewriter keys.
Anyway, in shooting it isn't the ear alone that discerns, but the total tactile sensations of the gun. I am always aware when the trigger breaks and the interval between trigger break and the recoil. I spent all summer shooting percussions, mostly a side slapper. I had thought my flints fired fast but after becoming accustomed to the side slapper and centerfire guns, when going back to flint I found myself saying "what is wrong with this durn thing?" I was very conscious of the "clunk" of flint on frizzen followed by the boom. Certainly I can't tell you how long the delay may have been but I was very aware that it was not instantaneous.
There is only so much a vent liner can do and to think changing to a magic vent liner will solve all problems is largely wishful thinking.

 

[roundball]

"...in shooting it isn't the ear alone that discerns, but the total tactile sensations of the gun. I am always aware when the trigger breaks and the interval between trigger break and the recoil..."

Very well put...AND...as important is the reliability factor that I believe comes with well coned vents

 

[tg]

If you want a real close copy of an originaI would suggest a plain hole a bit bigger than 1/16 coned a bit on the inside, the liner thing is getting away from how the originals were generaly made,It is amusing how some get real picky about type of wood, barrel finish and all the PC/HC details then put a liner in a gun that would not have had one in the past, just food for thought and unless bench shooting target competition the difference in speed will not likely be an issue.

 

[Vaino]

When I build a PC/HC LR having a TH liner in the bbl {all mine have one}, it doesn't detract one iota from it's appeal or authentic "look" according to my customers' opinions. Read an article awhile back written by a pre 1840 rondevous attendee whose entire week was "spoiled" because he caught a partial glimpse of a plastic cooler. Ain't that something? To each his own, I guess....Fred

 

[CoyoteJoe]

If that guy went to any of the rendezvous I attend he'd drop dead of apoplexy! :haha:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

If you guys ask, Jim will supple liners in a steel that will brown the same as the barrel
Regards,
Pletch

 

[Deadeye]

I've always made my own liners. Flat on the outside and coned as large as possible on the inside. When the gun is loaded look at the flash hole and you'll see powder in the hole. That powder is as close to the flash as possible. I never hear or feel any hesitation between the klack and the boom. I've tried other designs but feel this is the best.
Deadeye

 

[Ron_T.]

Just buy a TC then. You are not much older than me. I just know what an Armstrong looks like. Did you ever see one? Doesn't sound like it :rotf:

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Actually, Fitter... my mentor who is over-seeing my building of the somewhat shorten version of the Armstrong/Emmitsburg Long Rifle and is allowing me to use his shop and his tools under his supervision, has built and still owns three (3) Emmitburgs of his own in various calibers. His work is top-of-the-line and includes doing his own carvings and metal engraving. His rifles are absolutely BEAUTIFUL.

He insists on building a rifle the "old-fashion way" and so, I'm currently using a wooden mallet and a pair of chisels to hollow out the barrel channel in my nicely-figured piece of curly maple so I will "know-the-wood", as my mentor/task-master sez with a smile.

FYI, I've obviously "seen" an Armstrong/Emmitsburg and, in fact, I've shot two of my mentor's three Emmitsburgs... and your point is...???

Here's the Armstrong/Emmitsburg which my rifle will be patterned after except I'll be using brass where this rifle uses silver: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...&as=1&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&as=1&as=1

(Note: If you go to the site, scroll down a bit from the top to see a beautiful Armstrong/Emmitsburg flintlock Long Rifle)

As for my mentor's "qualifications", he is well-known at the Headquarters of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association at Friendship and, in fact, just finished his last term as one of the Trustees of the NMLRA of which he's been a long-term member and active supporter.

I mention this so that you won't "attack" him as you've "attack" me on this thread... and oddly enough, you have done so without any knowledge of my (or "his") abilities, qualifications or prior experience.

I've openly & honestly mentioned my intentions and I've received ALL very "positive", helpful, very friendly comments from everyone, which is normal for this Board.

Among all those comments, there have been only two negative comments, both made by you.

Hasn't it occurred to you that you're isolating yourself from everyone else?

BTW, that's a "rhetorical" question. You aren't expected to answer it, but it would probably prove benefical if you'd stop taking those "nasty" pills... they tend to over-shadow your otherwise (?) "sweet" disposition. :haha:


Ron T.

 

[Ron_T.]

Just buy a TC then. You are not much older than me. I just know what an Armstrong looks like. Did you ever see one? Doesn't sound like it :rotf:

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ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff


Actually, Fitter... my mentor who is over-seeing my building of the somewhat shorten version of the Armstrong/Emmitsburg Long Rifle and is allowing me to use his shop and his tools under his supervision, has built and still owns three (3) Emmitburgs of his own in various calibers. His work is top-of-the-line and includes doing his own carvings and metal engraving. His rifles are absolutely BEAUTIFUL.

He insists on building a rifle the "old-fashion way" and so, I'm currently using a wooden mallet and a pair of chisels to hollow out the barrel channel in my nicely-figured piece of curly maple so I will "know-the-wood", as my mentor/task-master sez with a smile.

FYI, I've obviously "seen" an Armstrong/Emmitsburg and, in fact, I've shot two of my mentor's three Emmitsburgs... and your point is...???

Here's the Armstrong/Emmitsburg which my rifle will be patterned after except I'll be using brass where this rifle uses silver: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...&as=1&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&as=1&as=1

(Note: If you go to the site, scroll down a bit from the top to see a beautiful Armstrong/Emmitsburg flintlock Long Rifle)

As for my mentor's "qualifications", he is well-known at the Headquarters of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association at Friendship and, in fact, just finished his last term as one of the Trustees of the NMLRA of which he's been a long-term member and active supporter.

I mention this so that you won't "attack" him as you've "attack" me on this thread... and oddly enough, you have done so without any knowledge of my (or "his") abilities, qualifications or prior experience.

I've openly & honestly mentioned my intentions and I've received ALL very "positive", helpful, very friendly comments from everyone, which is normal for this Board.

Among all those comments, there have been only two negative comments, both made by you.

Hasn't it occurred to you that you're isolating yourself from everyone else?

BTW, that's a "rhetorical" question. You aren't expected to answer it, but it would probably prove benefical if you'd stop taking those "nasty" pills... they tend to over-shadow your otherwise (?) "sweet" disposition. :haha:


Ron T.

Excuse me, Fitter... I made a slight error on my above post, but allow me to correct it now...

My mentor is NOT a "Trustee" of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, is one of the DIRECTORS... and he believes my shorten Armstrong/Emmitsburg Long Rifle will look just fine.

Smile... you caught me in a mistake, so you should be very happy. :rotf:

Ron T.

 

[Zonie]

Gentlemen: The SUBJECT here is liners, not Armstrong or any other kind of rifle.
The SUBJECT has nothing to do with who made what unless it is speaking of who made a vented liner or plain vent holes and how well they did or did not work.

Please do not sidetrack the Topic.

 

[tg]

"Please do not sidetrack the Topic"

Sometimes easier said than done Zonie, many folks have a hard time not commenting when bad info, missinformation and such get tossed around as though it was fact, this thread was pretty mild in that respect but many are pretty much a slap in the face to anyone who is into gun history, I guess those type just have to try harder to let things slide and enjoy revised history :hmm: