a scary story - blown up gun.

[Alden]

Cynthia Lee!
:shocked2:

 

[Alden]

I think between Cynthia Lee's conspiracy theory and CS's suggestion of invoking the scientific method, which is quite period, we have our pilot episode of CSI: The Muzzleloading Forum.

 

[Wes/Tex]

:hmm: A fouled bore won't do it and neither will a double charge. A catastrophic event like this speaks of high pressures and pressures that peak in the breech. black powder won't do this; smokeless will.

My thoughts exactly. Looked long and hard at the photos and they do say catastrophic peak pressure. This type of violence is almost always a result of a accidental charge of smokeless powder. As stated above, this can result from carelessness or mis-identification of the powder type. Have seen or read incidents of bad reactions from smokeless due to storage in plastic containers not designed for powder storage, but never from storage of black powder. Whatever the cause, the result is violent, as these photos well illustrate...only chemical analysis of the gun's bore or the powder not fired will answer the question for sure.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I'm thinking along the same lines you are. We've both seen these type of photos before. This "Shooter" (and I use that term loosely) is lucky the breechplug didn't wind-up between his eyes.

As a Certified NRA Instructor & CRSO I've seen examples of wrung barrels from obstructions, failures of Damascus barrels, etc., and IMHO this most closely resembles the images on the web from the incident involving the short breech plug threads on the Savage ML that takes a #209 Primer and SMOKELESS powder! It's basically a catastrophic failure from a detonation!

With all of that CARNAGE, and the fact that this was his first shot of the day, one good whiff of what's left of the barrel would tell a trained nose like mine whether or not it was smokeless or black powder..... Just sayin'...

Dave

 

[MattC]

Question: I have never reloaded or otherwise worked with smokeless powder, nor compared it side by side with black. Are they so visually similar that they could be mistaken? (all packaging aside)

 

[ord sgt]

Short answer....no. You would have to be familiar with both types of powder. Most black powder is made of small grains.
Smokeless is sometime disc or tubular shaped, very uniform in shape and size.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Are they so visually similar that they could be mistaken?

Generally no. For those of us experienced in the ml game, I would say 'never'. But some modern powders are black and even law enforcement people will call anything black, 'black powder'. It is a public image, public relations nightmare the bp community constantly has to fight.

 

[Rusty_Nail]

I am not up on smokeless, but remembering my dumb younger days, I seem to recall shotgun powder being the discs and the rifle and pistol powders were the tubular or pellet looking?

Is that right? :idunno:

 

[jamesthomas]

:hmm: A fouled bore won't do it and neither will a double charge. A catastrophic event like this speaks of high pressures and pressures that peak in the breech. black powder won't do this; smokeless will.

I think your right, The only way to cause that much damage from the breech to the front sight speaks of the sudden high pressure caused by smokeless powder, IMHO. Even a double load of blackpowder would probably just split or put a bulge in the barrel. I would check his shooting bag or powder horn and see what the powder he was using looked liked. He may even have the original container in the shooting bag.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Someone gave me about 1/3 a can of ffg powder some months ago, I thanked them kindly & watered it into the lawn after they left. Seeing something like this makes me vary happy with my decision.

 

[S.Kenton]

I agree... Smokeless is my guess as well. I've seen short started balls bulge barrels, even with a "hot" load thats all that happened..also have seen double loads do about the same. But NEVER in my days of shooting have I witnessed this scenario first hand. That mans LUCKY thats all he got was some messed up digits, coulda been ALOT worse!

 

[David W.]

Some smokeless powders can look similar to the untrained eye. SR 4756 and HS-6 are spherical powders with a somewhat black appearance. There are other powders that can fool an uneducated eye. I have heard stories of clerks attempting to sell smokeless powders to people who ask for black powder. I don't know if these stories are true or not. Some newbies may think just because a powder that is dark in appearance, it is OK to use, or may think they know what they are doing, and can disregard what they are told.

Smokeless powder has been used in black powder guns, and catastrophic results have occurred as a result.

Question: I have never reloaded or otherwise worked with smokeless powder, nor compared it side by side with black. Are they so visually similar that they could be mistaken? (all packaging aside)

 

[David W.]

Some smokeless powders can look similar to the untrained eye. SR 4756 and HS-6 are spherical powders with a somewhat black appearance. There are other powders that can fool an uneducated eye. I have heard stories of clerks attempting to sell smokeless powders to people who ask for black powder. I don't know if these stories are true or not. Some newbies may think just because a powder that is dark in appearance, it is OK to use, or may think they know what they are doing, and can disregard what they are told.

Smokeless powder has been used in black powder guns, and catastrophic results have occurred as a result.

Question: I have never reloaded or otherwise worked with smokeless powder, nor compared it side by side with black. Are they so visually similar that they could be mistaken? (all packaging aside)

 

[Jumpshot]

I'm kinda liking the conspiracy theory. We could use a little excitement around here. MeteorMan, your friend wouldn't happen to be involved in politics, would he? :grin:

 

[David W.]

No, that is not correct. Shotgun, rifle, and pistol powders can either be flake, tubular (extruded), or spherical.

I am not up on smokeless, but remembering my dumb younger days, I seem to recall shotgun powder being the discs and the rifle and pistol powders were the tubular or pellet looking?

Is that right? :idunno:

 

[mhb]

A very easy way to tell whether a powder sample is BP ... is the taste test (and no, I'm not joking).
Real BP will dissolve on the tongue, and the taste is unmistakeable - I characterize it as a sort of sharp, cool taste.
Some (I've not tried all) of the substitutes will also dissolve, but do not taste like real BP.
No true smokeless will dissolve on the tongue, being chemical compounds and mixtures of water-insoluble nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine, etc.
Try it, if you haven't already: you'll remember it.
And I have to agree that the wreck appears to be due to smokeless powder.

mhb - Mike

 

[Zonie]

I agree with the others. Smokeless powder was loaded into that gun.

A lot of smokeless powder is quite black looking.

Yes, it doesn't look like real black powder and it is often little cylinders, flakes or spheres but really, only someone who has loaded smokeless would know the difference.

To a novas, if it is black or nearly black and if it is in little grains it looks like something that would work.

Although it hasn't happened to me I have read many reports of clerks in gun stores not knowing the difference and telling people that they can use smokeless powder in their muzzleloaders.

It's also pretty easy to visualize a container of smokeless getting mixed up on a shelf with the other containers of Pyrodex or 777. The containers look pretty much alike.

The guy who had the accident probably thought he was loading the right kind of powder but that barrel says "smokeless did this" all over it.

 

[don hepler]

Yes, smokeless containers often look like 777, containers. The grain size is considerably larger with Black Subs, but someone who doesn't shoot that often, might not give that much thought. If someone else had access to the containers, they may have gotten switched around. Something to think about. I don't store my smokeless and BP in the same location, and now I'll be even more cautious. It's speculation now, but we need to find an answer on something like this. This incident, can be used to save others, if he will do everything possible to find the truth.

 

[David W.]

I tried to link a video, but I couldn't get it to work.

//www.youtube.com/embed/WgVRMUGzm24" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>

 

[Mark Sluka]

Looks like he used smokeless powder.
it looks just like the barrels used in these tests. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18