58 Or 62?

[Erzulis boat]

Down to the wire on the callout.

.58 or .62 caliber. Round ball of course. 37" Colerain, flintlock.


What kind of powder consumption am I looking at?

Capability for Cape Buffalo?

"Just the facts, Maam".

 

[Mike Brooks]

Down to the wire on the callout.

.58 or .62 caliber. Round ball of course. 37" Colerain, flintlock.


What kind of powder consumption am I looking at?

Capability for Cape Buffalo?

"Just the facts, Maam".

I like .62's If you're going bigger than .54. I've got .62's with a 1/66 twist to shoot accurately with 95gr of 3fff.
I don't know anything about cape buffs, but a .62 shooting RB should kill anything on the north american continent .

 

[Erzulis boat]

Mike-

95 grains? Doesn't sound bad at all, I was thinking I needed 120 plus.
Ammo- Hornady sells swaged balls up to .58 cal, but I could not ascertain whether they sold them in .62 cal. I can get "hand casted" all the live long day in .62, but I prefer the nice (less expensive too) swaged balls.
And lastly, 'cause I am a cautious man, how bad is this bore going to punish the wrist area on my next rifle (the transitional one).

 

[Cap'n ted]

I had same questions regarding size of bore. I built a flintlock for Alaska hunting in .58 roundball with a 1-66 twist. I use 120 gr. of ffg and didn't consider myself undergunned.

I took the flinter to South Africa hunting plains game and was fortunate to get impala, kudu, waterbuck, and wildebeeste with it using 120 grains of South African powder that resembled fffg, and shot to same point of impact as my ffg load.

After seeing cape buffalo up close and personal, I think the 10 bore would be a good starting point for them. That said, I've been fussing with this .58 Getz barrel with 1-48 twist and scheming on a good conical load. The cape buffalo have ribs that actually overlap, and they are physically tough hombres besides being well-protected from an anatomical perspective.

The PH that was with me had serious reservations about me using the flinter at the start of the hunt. They don't see many flint shooters there!. After the first clatch trying to shoot at the impala, he and my wife were quite anxious. I knapped the flint, re-primed, and took the shot again, with successful outcome. The tracker/skinner was very impressed with the power of the .58 roundball on the impala. Didn't get complete penetration at 80 meters.

The kudu and wildebeeste were toaken with broadside shots at about 75 meters. Neither wasd complete penetration and both were able to make it between 150-200 meters following loss of their heart and both lungs. These guys are tough!

I took the waterbuck next to the Limpopo River, where if it took off, it would have been into Botswana. In this instance, I was able to take a 50 meter shot from the PH's tripod, and took a neck shot. I was fortunate, and the waterbuck dropped in it's tracks. The PH said he'd never seen one dropped so quickly. They were in rut, and the ball stopped just inside the hide on the opposite side of the neck after severing the spinal column and spinal cord.

After that series of events, the PH had gained confidence in the power of the .58, but I still have serious reservations about using the caliber for cape buffalo. Bigger may be better, and not just to .62! That said, I firmly believe the .62 to be sufficient for any North American critters using patched round ball.

Maybe with conical it would serve for Cape buffalo?? There's many good accounts from the old South African hunters that suggest having 8 bores + is best.

Stay tuned, as I hope to try it in 2007

 

[Erzulis boat]

Thanks- Cap'n.

That sounds like the medicine I need.
Your .58 sounds like a sweetheart. 120 grains should push that ball nearly a ton at the muzzle (maybe more perhaps?).
80 meters with some juice left........
I used the Cape Buffalo as the benchmark for a reason!
That is sound philosophy however, that the .58 has it's niche (very broad), but for Buff, perhaps a whole new strategy involving conicals is superior.
I am glad that I asked-
Great information, thanks.

 

[rich pierce]

Harder bullets or balls are needed to get good penetration on tougher game. Pure lead musrooms too fast.

 

[tg]

I believe Ted Turner took some large African game years ago with 6 or 8 bore double guns with ball, I would not feel comfortable with a .62 ball against Buff or Rhino, the old timers used the big balls for a reason.Bullets are another option but you can shoot them in a mdl 70.

 

[oomcurt]

I've got to go along with others on this one. While a .58 or .62 may kill a Cape Buff...the big question is will he kill you before he dies? I don't intend to go to Africa myself, but even if I were to choose to go after a griz here...I would consider a .62 the very minimum. Same reason applies..yeah they will kill, without a doubt. BUT, you only have one shot. Using a double, I would consider the double in a .72...but there again..is the recoil going to loosen/move the projectile away from the power in the 2nd barrel? I have no problems with someone trying for one of those buffs...but I know I sure as hell would want something a hell of a lot more powerful.

 

[mikee51848]

I've got to go along with others on this one. While a .58 or .62 may kill a Cape Buff...the big question is will he kill you before he dies?

If you hunt Africa, and I never have, I'm quite sure your required guide will not be equipped with a flintlock!
Anyway, I'd prefer the .62 for it's versity, big game or up-land birds.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Whoa there fellas!

I agreed with the Cap'n, that is why I said the conical route was superior!
I have no intentions of hunting Cape Buffalo with a .58 PRB. Even at the muzzle with 120 grains FFFG, it might make a ton. It might be suited for a double-check, after the .458 M70 has got him down.
I will still plan a rifle capable however, and it will probably involve a 750 grain (plus) conical going at "ludicrous speed".
I will build the .58 RB shooter right now, but use it in a more limited capacity.
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Update-

I just got off the horn with Forest (apt name!) at Track of the Wolf. And I ordered...................................................


I am behind cover folks, so don't even try................

A Colerain 37" D profile .58 cal. with 1-66, Baby!
Chambers Christian Springs lock to boot!
1/4-20 tumbler screw? Ohhhhh Yeaaaaah!

Sorry, Mike...the Cap'n tale of the bush, brought a tear to my eye!
See, according to my way of thinking...a .58 is a big ass fifty, but a .62 is a little sixty, so I got to go with the bigger caliber! :haha:

 

[tg]

"I will build the .58 RB shooter right now, but use it in a more limited capacity.
Sorry, I should have been more clear"

Thanks for clearing that up, I have franticly been searching for info on what to do when being attacked and stomped by a wounded Cape Buff....

 

[Wes/Tex]

When a buff has you in his sights it's all over but the shouting! Dropping one of those beasts is tough enough but one with his adrenalin up is like stopping a locomotive with a ball bat. Just for he record, Mike Powasnik poured four 700 grain minies into one before he gave up, and these were four well placed shots. Can't have too much gun when the target can turn you into a bloody spot! Believe one of October Country's double 8 bores or the single barrel 4 bore would make me feel better...can't have too much gun...hey, who said that?

 

[howdydoit]

I say if you have serious thrill issues go for buff with the 58 ( I know you dont plan on it but never say never ). Should be one hell of a story when you get back ( if yo get back) I ll be all ears and ready to drop my 63 cal for a biggggg 58. :blah:

 

[ffffg]

at issue with round ball is RETAINED energy.. a round ball will loose aproximately half of its energy at 100 yards,, the bigger the more it retains in relationship with smaller balls.. but the poor ballistic coefficient of round ball is not escapeable.. the faster the round ball exits the muzzel the more energy it looses downrange faster.. that is a round ball moveing 2000 fps at muzzle drops more (relitive) energy than a ball exiting at 1200fps.. (at 100 yards..).. so for dangerous game bigger is better, and all this can be calculated in modern ballistic programs.. hard to find one that calculates round balls of this size.. from the little data im getting your retained energy gives enough energy over( im guessing as the calcualtors wont give me velocities on these beasts) to compensate for power loss at 75 yards.. about .750-.80 cal 700-800 grains, which is about 8 bore at 1200fps. with 250 grains of powder that would be a recoil of 47 foot pounds in a 15 pound gun,, all this is pretty scetchy as i said the calculators wouldnt give me complete info on this size ball.. but the muzzel of the 775 grain round ball is well over enough for the buff, the question i cant answer is velocity loss.. im guessing somewhere between 50-75 yards would be about right.. you should start researching this and correct any errors ive gotten with a balistics program and some research, as iv only spent a few minutes on it and you can get deep into it if yo wish.. dave.

 

[Erzulis boat]

The sphere is a bit screwy to be sure.

What would be nice if a test with a constant medium was used, like ballistic gelatin. Just to guage penetration.
Chronograph it, and basically keep increasing the powder charge.
There would be issues of deformation on actual game, but I would like to see the channels in the gel.
To find the distance , for a given rifle at X velocity, when the speed "scrub" of the sphere exceeds the "scrub" of the round with the lower exit velocity.
"Warp Factor 9"
Greater MV sheds energy "quicker" in a given distance, but merely decreasing the effective range (the foot pounds one feels is the minimum) is also complicated.
I am going to figure a way to chronicle this question.
The test would have to involve target gel at 25 meter increments (example) from 25 to 125 let's say.
Unless of course, someone has chronicled this before? :hmm: