54 cal impact on steel

[Rifleman1776]

The plate was very close range. Mebbe 10 feet. I was testing a new steel and had the plate welded to a very heavy base to deliberately make the plate absorb all the impact energy. Previous tests with varied guns, modern and ml, and steels had always made a splat with detrius going paralell to the plate and never back at me. This time was different.
Your 50 yards is fine. In later years my (modern) club had Mano-O-Mano matches using trees with swinging targets. These were very close range. With the swinging (horizontally) targets we never had a problem.

 

[excess650]

I've shot a bit of steel, but all of the reactive variety. Almost never does a projectile ricochet back, but rather, almost always radially away from POI.

At handgun velocities, steel should not be shot at less than 7 yards, and preferably further. I forget what the closest was back in the IPSC days, but never had issues.

We don't normally shoot larger than 54 cal at swingers. .45s will barely move them, but a .62 or larger will wrap the swinger around the stand and launch the whole assembly into the air. :haha:

 

[Thing]

The steel target was at 75 yards. The Ball simply splattters .Sometimes you can find a small piece on the ground .Looks like a very thin wafer

somewhere on the PC is a slow motion film of ball hitting steel .You can see the ball going from round to flat and splattering in all directions like powder.

 

[Thing]

The target was at 75 yards and hanging on a chain.
that is why I stated it began to swing violently.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Almost never does a projectile ricochet back

Glad you qualified with "almost". A soft lead roundball can richocet. DAMHIK, I almost killed a friend learning that.

 

[hanshi]

I would never advise shooting a prb at steel any closer than 25 yards or there about. When a soft lead ball hits a hard surface more or less head on, that ball will make a big dent, spatter and flatten out like a piece of foil. No comeback or ricochet. If it hits at an angle it will deform and ricochet while hugging the striking angle. Hard lead? Well, depends on how hard and how fast. Thing is, just remember to not get in there close.

 

[William O.]

The CAS/SASS folks regularly shoot at steel pistol targets that are no more than 5 yards away. Eye and ear protection is mandatory too, and there is a strictly enforced velocity restriction on pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds which must be all lead. Still, I'd get hit by the occasional bit of lead even 10 yards off the firing line. Rifle targets were placed farther away for safety but there was still an all lead requirement along with a max velocity rule. After a few years even the 5/8 inch thick, armorers steel targets had to be replaced as they'd get bent backwards from thousands of low velocity hits.

 

[kaintuck]

i have had 'returns' from as far away as 100yds.....stuff hitting the tin cover on the range roofing... :shocked2:
if it CAN happen...it will......

 

[Dphar]

The CAS/SASS folks regularly shoot at steel pistol targets that are no more than 5 yards away. Eye and ear protection is mandatory too, and there is a strictly enforced velocity restriction on pistol, rifle and shotgun rounds which must be all lead. Still, I'd get hit by the occasional bit of lead even 10 yards off the firing line. Rifle targets were placed farther away for safety but there was still an all lead requirement along with a max velocity rule. After a few years even the 5/8 inch thick, armorers steel targets had to be replaced as they'd get bent backwards from thousands of low velocity hits.

SASS allows a lot of dangerous silliness, since Trail Boss hit the market at least they don't blow up as many guns... I decided after one End of Trail (I have a three digit SASS badge in a dresser drawer) that it was not something I really cared to do.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

This is 1/2" hot rolled mild steel (about as soft as it gets), likely 1018 or less, shot at 50 yards with M2 ball from a Garand. Note: this was either LC or Greek with the mild steel jacket NOT AP.
A 308 should produce similar effects with similar bullets. I doubt that any of my MLs will do this at any distance. They will divot mild steel at high velocity but nothing like this.

RR tie plates are much harder as is A500 I suspect since its higher carbon and for all I know tie plates might be A500 or similar.
This is a video of me shooting one 1/2" thick with my 16 bore with 140 gr of FF Swiss.

Tie plate vs .662 ball


Below is about as much as you see 50 cal 90 gr FFF Swiss. A fairly stout pistol load will only create splatter.

I don't know that the alloy is here but the range was under 40 yards. This is a "44 Mag" spinner target.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would also point out that such divots and craters make the target very dangerous to shoot again since a bullet strike on the edge of the crater can result in material being diverted back directly at the shooter/firing line.
Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

hanshi, never say never, I never do. :wink:
Actually, in this issue, there are too many variables to say the result of a lead ball hitting steel will react in a certain way. The hardness, size and velocity of the ball are all confusing variables. As is the type of steel (a major factor) thickness, how it is supported, phase of the moon and much more. The photo below is one of my remaining targets from when I made and sold them. It is a Buff designed for muzzle loaders only at 50 yards. The body is of T1A steel. This steel is high impact resistant and used in the mining industry. To save money the base was mild steel. Both are 1/2". On the left you can see an impact that cratered the body. Such a crater can send detrius straight back. The base, not intended to be shot at :nono: , cratered much more severely. Currently, the commercial steel targets use much harder and dent resistant steels than the T1A, I can't speak for them.

[/URL][/img]

 

[hanshi]

Good point and I try to keep away from saying "never" but do slip up occasionally. I've seen too many things that "can't happen" actually happen. This is why I suggested no closer than 20 to 25 yards.

Velocity is required for a barrier to be penetrated; a .220 Swift will normally go through barriers (steel plate, etc) that will stop a 30/06. This is assuming similar bullet construction. On the other hand a slower moving, heavier projectile will penetrate farther once it is past a barrier. I once shot an RR rail tie plate with a .270 and it penetrated leaving a nice round hole. I shot the plate again with a .350 Rem Mag 250 grn bullet (factory) and it made a serious crater with a small tear in the bottom but was otherwise stopped cold. However, I know which one I'd rather fire at a G bear; that 250 bullet would go farther inside the griz than the .270.

 

[kaintuck]

Aaahhhhh....velocity and mass......after shooting everything in my 40yrs...from my 2-1/4 cannon, to 17's.....at everything.....there is a surprise.
If it goes bang.......there will be a result........

:surrender:

 

[Heavy Eagle]

:hmm: The reason the gong reacted as it did could be the 54 is traveling at a slower rate on speed and the round ball is a solid peice of lead while the rounds of the modern guns are jacketed, designed to mushroom out and have higher fps speed. ANd there is nothing ring as pretty as a gong rung by a round ball--it sings. :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

You are absolutely right. When one considers that kinetic energy is effected far more by velocity than by mass, it is no wonder that there is a diminishing return in KE as the ball gets larger. The larger the ball, the more powder it takes to achieve any given velocity and the faster this velocity bleeds off as the ball passes through the air. While I have not done the math, I am currently of the opinion that the .54 is an excellent balance of mass and velocity resulting in more KE per grain of powder up to the maximum efficient load for any given barrel.

Just my thoughts, :hmm: 'tain't scripture. :haha:

 

[Hans74]

The round ball is greatly underestimated now days. A .54 with a 80 gr load will deliver a round ball right at 1600 fps and with it being pure lead will put its full weight on the iron unlike a hardened conical or hardened ball that will fragment on impact.
I had a 10" round Armour Plate AR500 Steel swinger hanging at 75 yards I used for offhand practice and something for the Grand Kids to shoot at with 1/2 loads when they came over.
In time I started to notice spider web cracks forming and one day the center fell out.

 

[hanshi]

So true, so true....iffin we remembers to load powdah. :grin:

 

[hanshi]

I tend to agree with you on the .54 being a great balance point. It can be moved fast with reasonable charges and has enough mass to do what it needs.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

I love my 54 cal GPR flintlock.

I do believe 90gr FFFg is too much powder, although it handles it as per the manufacturer.

I never did the sheet test with it yet, t find unburnt powder out the barrel.

I am going to rezero the gun only 60gr FFFg powder. I only use roundball.

I have had 22lr's zing right back at me a few times using spinner plates. One time we kne where it hit, it hit the large guage wire frame.

I don't shoot closer than 50 yards wen I target shoot. Muzzleloader shoots are an exception. Reluctant, however, enjoyable.