.45 cal kid's shotgun, antique

[Scott B]

Having always shot flint rifles, I'm lost with something I bought for my three kids yesterday: an antique (persuamably) kid-sized percussion fowler. It's very mint -- maybe unfired. I was told it was an Austrian .410. The bore actually measures .452 now that I've mic'd it.
It's agreat-looking gun: octagon-to-round barrel, all-walnut stock (even the ram rod),browned steel hardware except for the brass guard and German silver "acorn" inlay on top of the wrist and a silver cap at the nose end of the stock, a very solid bridled lock that looks like those on English percussion fowlers. But there's no maker, nationality, caliber/bore info, or anything else other than proof marks on the barrel or lock.
My question is this: I assume to shoot it (which is why I bought it) I could shoot either shot or light loads with a patched .451 ball? The barrel is quite thin after it turns to round, but is it OK to shoot patched balls in a fowler if you don't get too tight with the patch nor too heavy on the powder? I was hoping my kids could use it at our club shoots, where the kids only shoot 25-yard targets.
Any thoughts?

 

[mazo kid]

Scott, a picture would be nice so we can try to identify the shotgun. My GUESS is that it may be a contemporary build using an original barrel. Dixie Gun Works had several tons of original muzzleloading parts a few years ago and there were a LOT of Belgian barrels. I bought one that sounds a lot like yours; octagon (approx 4" or so) to round, tapered, slender barrel. Congratulations on your find. Emery

 

[54mountain]

sounds like a great find , But if the bore mics.452 a .451 ball and patch will be way to tight find some .440 rbs and a .10 patch. Idealy a .430 ball and pillow ticking would work better but I don't Know if you could even find a mold for that size.

 

[mazo kid]

Scott and 54MM, Lee makes a .433 round ball mold, that should be pretty close. Otherwise, Jeff Tanner in the UK will make any size you want for ~$25 or so. Emery

 

[Scott B]

Thanks for the info so far.
I guess my main question is whether it's safe at all to shoot a ball through a very thin-walled shotgun barrel, once I get a good fit of PRB? It seems it is OK, based on the responses?

I'll try to post a couple of pics here (I've never done it before).

The barrel is 31 inches long, and the octagon section is 11 inches. The most prominant proofmark is an "E" over an "LG" over a star, all inside an oval.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z120/ScottB65/sideview.jpg http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z120/ScottB65/acorninlay.jpg http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z120/ScottB65/tirggerguard.jpg

 

[Scott B]

I'm gonna try those pics again:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The maximum Powder that length barrel will burn in .45 will be 62 grains. Because of the age, I would back that off to no more than 60 grains. Your best accuracy with a smoothbore is going to be shooting no more than 90% of that maximum,( and probably much less than that) so keep your loads under 55 grains and you should have no problems with pressures getting too high. I like FFFg powder, but would suggest working with FFg powder for an additional margin of safety.

When I was shooting my .45, I did a lot of good work out to 50 yards shooting loads from 35 grains to 55 grains, using FFFg Goex powder.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

If you don't want to get into casting balls, Speer does make a .433" swaged ball, or at least they did a couple of years ago, they may have dropped it because I'm sure it never was a top seller. It was produced primarily for the Hopkins&Allen muzzle loaders which had slightly smaller bores than what has become a standard .45 today. The common .440" size balls were a bit tight in those barrels so lots of people wanted the .433" balls. But there's likely not enough of those still in use to justify stocking a ball that no one else wants. I think a .440" ball would require an exceptionally thin patch to be "loadable" and such a thin patch would likely be blown to bits when fired. I think that is quite a "find" you have there, it certainly looks well made, not at all like the little Spanish made 32 gauge single shotguns that Dixie Gun Works and others used to sell for $19.95! :grin:

 

[Many Klatch]

My wife has a .50 smoothbore that Mike Lea built. It weighs about 5 pounds. The bore is very thin once you get beyond the Octagon. She shoots it with 35 grains of 3f. It makes a nice pop and it will go through two phone books. I think for a kid, 35 grains of powder should be plenty.

Many Klatch

 

[Scott B]

I don't mean to "beat a dead horse" on this thing, but I'm on a roll with it and all of your help has made me curious. I was e-mailed a page of proof marks, and if the page is correct, the barrel is Belgium-made. It's just the fact that it's so paper thin that freaks me out. Again, I'm used to big, thick, heavy rifles. This gun, with a 31-inch barrel, weighs just under four pounds on my scales, and the wall thickness at the muzzle is only .052" though, like I mentioned, it's octagonal for 11 inches and is thicker there.
Are fowlers all thin like this? And is the weight of a .440 ball (which does seem to fit well with a .010 patch) close to the weight of a charge of shot that would be used in such a gun? I've never loaded a B.P shotgun, so I have no idea what weights of shot/powder to use as opposed to shooting PRBs. With a ball and in my kids' hands (and faces), I'd only want enough powder to safely get it out the barrel and down range 25 yards. In my flint longrifles in competition, I rarely use more than 40 grains of FFF in .50 cal. until I get out to 100 yards (and then I shoot 70 gr.), and with my .32 squirrel rifle, I shoot 23 grains FFF, and in my pistols I hover around 15 grains in 45 cal. I doubt I'd go over 25-30 grains with this little smoothbore gun. That's bound to be safe, right? Even in this thin tube?
Thanks
Scott

 

[cptleo1]

As with any old gun -

Tie it to an old tire or some such devise and use a lanyard for the first 1/2 dozen shots.

Heck, I take any gun I build and wedge it up in some sand bags and touch off a few before I shoulder fire it.

I really don't see the need to go past 50 gr.

IMHO

 

[bwhoffman]

I would use a lite load,an undersized ball, and patch up to get a decent fit.
I'm thinking that when this was made, the intention was shot, not ball. Like a few others have mentioned....test it first,...from a distance.

Pretty gun I might add!

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes Scott, old smoothbore barrels did tend to be very thin, I have a W&C Scott&Sons 14 gauge with 36" barrel which weighs 5 1/4 pounds, a joy to carry but a mule to shoot. And yes, the weight of a round ball would also be the approximate weight of a standard load of shot. There is what is called a "square load" which means the height of the shot column is about the same as the diameter. That would be a rough starting point. Smaller bores were normally loaded a bit heavier than the ball weight while larger bores were often loaded a bit lighter. By the gauge system a .450 bore would be a 52 gauge and would call for just a bit over 1/4 ounce of shot but I would imagine 1/2 ounce should be OK with maybe 30 grains of 2f black. With #8 shot it should be effective on small game within 15 to maybe 20 yards and should break hand thrown clays.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I took a look at my old Hodgdon Reloading Manual because it has a page with recommended loads for shotguns. The closest caliber show is the .410 shotgun shell, and the manual recommends 3 loads for it.

Using FFg powder, the HEAVY load is 41 grains( 1 1/2 drams) for 1094 Fps with 5/8 oz. Shot.

The medium load is 41 grains of FFg, ( 1 1/2 drams) behind a 1/2 oz. load of shot for 1123 fps.

The Light load is 34 grains of FFg, (1 1/4 drams) behind a 1/2 Oz. load of FFg for 1078 Fps.

If you are using a VOLUME measure to measure your powder charges in grains, you would set it at 40 grains to throw 5/8 oz. of shot, and set it at 30 grains to throw 1/2 oz. of shot.

I believe your concern about the condition of the old gun is warranted, and warrants a close visual inspection of the bore. I am not worried about pressure exploding the barrel, because you do have 11 inches of octagon barrel, with much metal surrounding the powder, back at the breech. By the time the the shot moves forward into the round barrel portion of the gun, the pressure will have dropped substantially. Even this " Heavy " load is relatively light as pressure goes. The only problem you have with that thin round muzzle is worrying about dropping the gun, or banging it into something with could dent the barrel, or collapse an edge of the muzzle.

These Light loads are not going to give much if any recoil, even in this light weight gun. They should be great for the kids. Just remember that this is a 15-20 yard gun, and don't expect much in the way of patterns beyond 20 yards.

I recommend using #8 shot. It gives you a lot more pellets for your pattern, and is adequate to kill doves, rabbits, squirrels, rats, etc. within the range of the gun. Commercial .410 shells are usually loaded with #6 shot, but that is for shooting quail, and close rising pheasants. It can also be used for squirrel hunting, to get the tree rats out of the tops of tall trees.

CAUTION: if you choose to use FFFg powder instead of the recommended FFg powder in this gun, reduce the powder charges by 15% by volume.

For cleaning the gun, buy a .45 cal. nylon bristle bore brush, and a .45 cal. cleaning jag. Buy a patch pulling jag( looks like a cork screw) while you are at it. And, you might want to consider buying a breechplug face scraper( looks like a brass screwdriver blade attached to a threaded screw to put in your range rod). YOu can buy .45 caliber OS cards,some wonderlube, and then some flannel, 100% pure cotton cleaning patches, and you should be good to go. Poke off-center holes in the OS cards. Use 4 of them over the powder charge, the pour in the shot, and use 2 more OS cards over the shot. you can grease up a cleaning patch and run that down the barrel to grease the barrel After the gun is loaded. This will keep the fouling soft for cleaning, but it will also reduce or eliminate the amount of lead that scrapes off the pellets against the bore, which would otherwise leave you streaks of lead to clean out. It should also allow the pellets to slide over the bore, and not develop the flats on the outside pellets in the load as they are going down the barrel. That means that more shot will stay in the pattern.

 

[Mike Brooks]

The gun was built in probably the last ten years or so using an old belgian barrel. Proof fire it then it should be fine. I wouldn't load it with more than 50 grains . It will probably settle in and shoot good round ball groups with around 35 to 45 grains.

 

[Scott B]

Well, I shot the gun and it didn't kill me. The barrel felt extremely "wavy" as the ball went down the bore, even with a loose patch. But, here's where it's first three shots with 25 gr. FFF landed shot off-hand at 25 yards. I've never shot a smoothbore with just a front sight before, so I assume someone who knows what he's doing would do better.
Thanks VERY MUCH to all who took the time to help me with this.

 

[mazo kid]

Scott, what size ball did you use? Hornady makes the .433 swaged round balls, at least they were advertised in the current issue of Muzzle Blasts.

 

[Scott B]

I shot .440 balls, which I have a lot of for two .45 cal. pistols I shoot. I think anything much looser would easily ride off the powder, unless I went to a much thicker patch. The barrel felt as if it wasn't "true," for lack of a better term (I could feel it hitting high spots and low spots in the barrel, if that makes sense). I hope that's not a hazzard. But, the fit still wasn't very tight -- nothing like I shoot in my rifles.
I'll have to get some of those that you mention and try them, though -- maybe just go to .018" ticking, which I have a lot of, and experiment.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

That's pretty durn good for an offhand group, especially with such a light gun! The variation in bore diameter you've encountered, tight and loose spots, is not unusual in those old barrels but it certainly is not a good thing either. It could be lapped out to a uniform diameter if you want to bother but if it consistently shoots that well I'd call it good to go. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The loose spots tell me it was made with the intention of shooting shot loads, and not RB loads. Its obviously capable of shooting good groups with Round balls, So, other than trying different ball and patch combinations, and different lubes, I would leave well enough alone. Enjoy the old barrel.

Use an OP wad, or loose filler, to seal the gases to take care of those loose spots, and it should tighten those great groups even more.