Browning issue

Howdy - I’m attempting to refinish a Pedersoli pistol flint lock pistol. I have browned the barrel and I am trying to get the lock to brown. The lock was disassembled, bead blasted, degreased, etc. I have a sweat box that his heated to about 80 to 90 degrees and the humidity is 80%. I have browned other barrels and parts with great results. However the pedersoli lock parts (plate and cock) do not brown well. Very light color. I have used TOTW browning and Laurel mountain Forge (great stuff). Parts have been left in the box from 3 hours to 24 hours. I am beginning to think the metal is hardened to the point it won’t brown deeply. Has anyone else here had this experience?

I would suspect that they have been made with one of the HS alloys that has chrome in it. This will not brown whatever you put on it..

Hardening will not affect the colour.. this is dependent on the chemical characteristics of the steel!

Originally these parts would have been made from Wrought Iron, which will not harden due to the low carbon content. This is why the usual treatment was to case harden the metal, which gives a hard skin over a tough core. Hard hammers have a tendency to become broken hammers!

The "modern" solution is to make these parts out of alloy steel which, when treated gives a balance between hardness and toughness.. but won't brown! You will also find that Browning is pretty soft and will come off with use and wear. Cocks and hammers take a bit of a beating, so you are probably better leaving them in the white..

I browned the barrel on mine but left the lock plate alone as it is case hardened. I am no expert but I decided that the browning might not take over the case hardening. That may be the problem. Just my opinion.

Dave

58 Caliber said:

I browned the barrel on mine but left the lock plate alone as it is case hardened. I am no expert but I decided that the browning might not take over the case hardening. That may be the problem. Just my opinion.

Dave

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The colors of the hardening are are an acid wash to get the colors. I wiped them off with blueing remover in one swipe. In retrospect I should have left it alone.

Felix the Cat said:

I would suspect that they have been made with one of the HS alloys that has chrome in it. This will not brown whatever you put on it..

Hardening will not affect the colour.. this is dependent on the chemical characteristics of the steel!

Originally these parts would have been made from Wrought Iron, which will not harden due to the low carbon content. This is why the usual treatment was to case harden the metal, which gives a hard skin over a tough core. Hard hammers have a tendency to become broken hammers!

The "modern" solution is to make these parts out of alloy steel which, when treated gives a balance between hardness and toughness.. but won't brown! You will also find that Browning is pretty soft and will come off with use and wear. Cocks and hammers take a bit of a beating, so you are probably better leaving them in the white..

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Thanks! Most likely the case.

Siringo said:

The colors of the hardening are are an acid wash to get the colors. I wiped them off with blueing remover in one swipe. In retrospect I should have left it alone.

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OK so now I am confused. As I said I am not an expert. So if I want the colors back on an item that was case hardened can I perform the acid wash to get them back? I was under the impression that the case hardening process gives the metal the color. Thanks.

Dave

Could you use some of the coloring dyes they use to mimic case hardened colors? I believe birchwood casey makes some and I know Ive seen others but cant remember the brand names. You would need to apply a lacquer for protection afterwards.
I believe either Uberti or Pedersoli showed a short video of how they immersed the parts in a solution to create the colors. With a little searching it might be found. Its been a while since Ive seen that.

58 Caliber said:

OK so now I am confused. As I said I am not an expert. So if I want the colors back on an item that was case hardened can I perform the acid wash to get them back? I was under the impression that the case hardening process gives the metal the color. Thanks.

Dave

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No, you are correct.. Colour case hardening leaves a pattern of colours on the surface, which if you remove with an acid wash, will not come back.
Case hardening is a heat treatment process that creates a zone of carbon rich iron on the surface of the object that will harden when quenched. By adding bone charcoal and other ingredients to the process, a pattern of coloured marks can be created on the surface due to the contaminants in the charcoal. It is a tricky and potentially risky process needing access to a high temperature furnace.

It is possible using modified cold bluing methods to copy the process. Cold bluing works by plating a metal (usually copper) to the surface of the steel and then chemically changing the colour. Cold blue solutions that will produce other colours are now available. This may be what was on the Petersoli lock in the first place...

I would try to see if the lock plate will react with one of the normal cold blue treatments such as BC Super Blue. If it does, it may be worth pursuing one of the "Cold Colour" kits..

Thank you Felix. Thought I was loosing my mind here. I am in the process of looking for one of the kits to redo the color case hardening on an old shotgun I have. One I read about did include a copper plating first. Siringo, I apologize if I took over your thread.
Dave

Felix is correct about color case hardening. To brown it you must anneal it first but then you lose the advantage of the case hardening. Factories use a cyenide bath to do this but the hobbyists can do a first class job with wood and bone charcoal. Here’s an example.
IMG_0424 by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

Update on my Pedersoli lock browning. I finally got the finish and color to match the barrel brown. I continued with the LMF browning solution, but upped the humidity in the box to 90% and reapplied the solution every 8 or 9 hours. The process took 72 straight hours versus the barrel at 18 hours. Interesting that the bare metal on the backside of the lock plate never rusted with that high of humidity.

Siringo said:

Has anyone else here had this experience?

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Yes, I have, many times I have just finished the lock of new origins with a paste wax and left them in the white. Over time the lock will age and become darker. I have a lock that came to me in the white. It is a Richland arms rifle that commemorates the Alamo. I have had it for 30 years and have yet to see it discolor.