Pietta lube recommend vs Uberti

Hello,
After some discussion on here and a bit of research, I was getting ready to do away with the lube (crisco) over the balls and just stick with the lubed fiber wad between charge and ball. But, fished out my .44 '58's Remmie Pietta catalog and it says in there to use lube over the ball for prevention of chain fires plus a couple of other reasons. That made me more nervous about skipping the step. Those of you who have Uberti weapons, what does that company recommend? Just curious..

Thanks for any help!

Daniel

A proper sized ball is what stops chainfires, not the lube. You will be fine with the lubricated wad as long as you have a ball a few thousandths larger than the chamber so that it shears off a thin ring of lead when you seat the ball. The main thing that the lube over the ball does is to keep the arbor lubed, so you may need to look at that issue if you do very much shooting.

Interesting question,
There is mention but not really a specific loading step.
It's a secondary "note" under step 16 found here; http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-manuals/black_powder_revolvers.pdf

In the Uberti manual that was linked, mention is made in three places of greasing over the projectile. In the general instructions, the statement is made to add grease over the ball to prevent chain fires. In the instructions for loading the revolver, the instruction ends with the use of a greased patch over and around the ball. (You should not need to patch around a ball in a revolver. It will be stripped off in the forcing cone and accuracy will suffer.) And in step 16, the use of grease over the projectile is mentioned, but no statement about the use.

My first black powder pistol was an Uberti Confederate revolver in Navy caliber. Being new and really not having any experience with black powder firearms, I bought some of the suggested buckshot. I used Crisco over the ball all the time. Those under sized shot were prone to chain fire. I finally measured the chamber size and found the chamber measured 0.375. After I changed to a 0.380 ball that shaved off a ring of lead upon loading, no more chain fires. A greased wad under the ball will help with keeping the fouling soft.

With a proper fitting ball and tight fitting caps to the nipple cone, you shouldn't have any problems with chain fires. Dealing with the fouling on the arbor is another topic.

pinemarten said:

Hello,
After some discussion on here and a bit of research, I was getting ready to do away with the lube (crisco) over the balls and just stick with the lubed fiber wad between charge and ball. But, fished out my .44 '58's Remmie Pietta catalog and it says in there to use lube over the ball for prevention of chain fires plus a couple of other reasons. That made me more nervous about skipping the step. Those of you who have Uberti weapons, what does that company recommend? Just curious..

Thanks for any help!

Daniel

Click to expand...

Hey Daniel.
There's a few different ways to inhibit the flash over that causes more than one chamber to ignite. A lubed wad over the powder to be a barrier to the little bit of hot gases that get passed the ball will work. A grease in front of the ball will work (reference American Petroleum Institute specifications on not having grease on the seals when pressure leak testing valves because it makes them seal better). And a jammed in very tight metal to metal fit on the ball to chamber wall joint can work.
The person used to dealing with such things will question which one is the most reliably repeatable in practice when not having the option of testing the seal prior to depending upon it's integrity.

So, yeah, I use grease either in front or inside the chamber.

GoodCheer said:

There's a few different ways to inhibit the flash over that causes more than one chamber to ignite. A lubed wad over the powder to be a barrier to the little bit of hot gases that get passed the ball will work.

Click to expand...

Sir - I'm again confused trying to figure out how any flame can get by a ball that has been forced into a hole that is small enough to shave a ring of the ball material off in order to fit into it.

I'm afraid that I subscribe to the vast majority of people who firmly believe that chain-fires happen from the REAR of the chamber, where an ill-fitting percussion cap and worn nipples allow the prodigious flame of ignition to jump sideways, this igniting the adjacent chamber.

I also subscribe to doing what Mr Colt - the inventor of the Colt revolving pistol - suggests in the instructions to be found on the inside of every cased Colt pistol made, and load the way he devised.

He makes NO mention whatsoever about using either grease or a wad.

Now, I realise that since I'm not American, my opinion counts for less than BFZ, but I HAVE been shooting cap and ball revolvers for over fifty years, and not only have I never yet experienced a chainfire, I've never seen one, either.

YMMV.

tac

If using a fiber wad no lube is needed, IN fact the only time I have ever had a chain fire on me Pietta 1860 was when I used crisco for a lube, It turned out that poor fitting caps on factory nipples was the problem. After swapping to Apco bronze nipples I now often shoot it with ball on powder and no lube with out a problem using 451 balls

tac said:

GoodCheer said:

There's a few different ways to inhibit the flash over that causes more than one chamber to ignite. A lubed wad over the powder to be a barrier to the little bit of hot gases that get passed the ball will work.

Click to expand...

Sir - I'm again confused trying to figure out how any flame can get by a ball that has been forced into a hole that is small enough to shave a ring of the ball material off in order to fit into it.

I'm afraid that I subscribe to the vast majority of people who firmly believe that chain-fires happen from the REAR of the chamber, where an ill-fitting percussion cap and worn nipples allow the prodigious flame of ignition to jump sideways, this igniting the adjacent chamber.

I also subscribe to doing what Mr Colt - the inventor of the Colt revolving pistol - suggests in the instructions to be found on the inside of every cased Colt pistol made, and load the way he devised.

He makes NO mention whatsoever about using either grease or a wad.

Now, I realise that since I'm not American, my opinion counts for less than BFZ, but I HAVE been shooting cap and ball revolvers for over fifty years, and not only have I never yet experienced a chainfire, I've never seen one, either.

YMMV.

tac

Click to expand...

Hi tac.
I don't know what a BFZ is.

I've seen it happen. First time was my brother shooting a brass framed .44 round about the time the Israelis took the temple mount. I think that ignition for additional discharges happens from the front or from the rear, either way.

Concerning the front end, here's my thoughts. Making up gas tight metal to metal seals doesn't work every time. In the case of putting a lead ball into a chamber the sealing surface is being smeared while being sheared with variables introduced by the operator and the equipment. The exact location of the ram versus the axis of the chamber while seating the ball, the diameter and quality of the ball, the size and centering of the sprue, the tolerances maintained during the machining of each chamber in each revolver, the amount of taper in the chambers, the depth the ball is seated into each chamber, the side play in the ram linkage, the leverage provided by the ram lever... all that stuff introduces variables into manufacturing the seal. So any how, that's how I think it happens.

BFZ = Big Fat Zero.

tac

Had a few chain fires with my first revolver. I lubed the cylinder so it likely from using # 11 caps. I didnt know back then (40 ys ago) caps came in different sizes?

I can tell ya if you put crisco in yer cylinders and shoot out the door of yer automobile, using the door frame as a "bench rest" that you wont be able to see out the side rear view mirror on the way home and when home it isnt easy to clean said mirror of blackened crisco :redface:

Ahhh! It was you shootin up the street signs the other day...... :grin:

Could'a been Sam Colt hisself that once proclaimed: "We don't need no stinkin' Crisco ..."

Tha fact that Crisco wasn't invented until nearly 100 years later not withstanding.

Been shooting C&B revolvers since Dad brought home a Replica Arms (Uberti) 1861 Colt back in 1968. I still have it and shoot it to this day. I used Crisco over the cylinder face, as fashionable at the time. Met an old gent at the range whose Grand daddy taught him to load & shoot the original 1860 Colt he was shooting that day. Said he never used Crisco or any lube over the seated balls & never had any problems. I quit Crisco then & there and never looked back - never any problems, either.

Not going to retype the whole thing so please see a post I just made here: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post...

If all is proper you don't need to lube over the balls, it's

Capt. Thomas

dang! Link won't work for me....what was the post title or something I can use to search it Sir?

Thanks!

Daniel

I have waffled back and forth over the issue of using grease over a ball in a revolver VS just a greased wad over the powder. Using just a wad over the powder results in more gummy fouling on the arbor. The grease over the ball helps with that but the down side is that it is also a lot messier when the grease gets blown out of the chamber and sprays out between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Right now, and this is subject to change, I am using a wad over the powder and, rather than filling the chamber over the ball with grease, I use just a small dab of grease over the ball. It's a compromise that seems to be working for me....at the moment.

Billnpatti said:

I have waffled back and forth over the issue of using grease over a ball in a revolver VS just a greased wad over the powder. Using just a wad over the powder results in more gummy fouling on the arbor. The grease over the ball helps with that but the down side is that it is also a lot messier when the grease gets blown out of the chamber and sprays out between the cylinder and the forcing cone. Right now, and this is subject to change, I am using a wad over the powder and, rather than filling the chamber over the ball with grease, I use just a small dab of grease over the ball. It's a compromise that seems to be working for me....at the moment.

Click to expand...

ANY petro-chemical-based grease in a muzzleloader is going to eventually bake into a nigh-on immovable black crud.

You'all do whatever you feel like doing, grease or wads or grease and wads or none of either or both, and I'll drop out of this discussion - we'll never agree! :surrender:

tac

"I'll drop out of this discussion - we'll never agree!" :rotf:

Tac, when it comes to fillers, lubes or wads, over or under the ball and where chain fires come from it's best to not even get involved in the first place. :yakyak: :v :grin:

Hawkeye2 is right, but I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyways. This debate shows up all the time in one form or another.

So here is my take:
Unless you use the wrong ball size, chain fires occur from the rear of the cylinder due to wrong size caps. It's happened to me.

Beyond that, try all the different suggestions and do what works for you.

I tried Crisco over the ball for several years. I don't like it. Most of it goes to naught, and a lot of it goes on your hands and the pistol grips - just where you don't want it. Plus, if you have the right size ball, it doesn't do you any good anyway. As for lubing the arbor, don't use petroleum based lube on it, and you will likely be fine for quite a few cylinders worth. If you shoot a lot, put a less viscous lube on it than Crisco (which disappears quickly, especially in hot weather.)

I've tried them all, and I now use home made felt wads with home made lube in them. Works for me.

If I only intend to shoot a few cylinders worth, I go with Col. Colt's suggestion and don't use any lube at all.

I have used cornmeal as well. The advantage with cornmeal is that it gets the ball closer to the mouth of the cylinder, which is said to be an aid to accuracy.

In any event, try them all. I'm pretty sure you'll abandon the Crisco over the ball pretty quickly if you do.

Cheers,
Chowmi

Sometimes it seems the instructions the Italians include with their guns were written by someone that only have a vague understanding of the loading and cleaning processes, and are cutting and pasting the information.

"

I'm afraid that I subscribe to the vast majority of people who firmly believe that chain-fires happen from the REAR of the chamber, where an ill-fitting percussion cap and worn nipples allow the prodigious flame of ignition to jump sideways, this igniting the adjacent chamber."

Colt believed that both were possible and so devised solutions for each. He says so on pages 9 and 10 of the document "On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech fire-arms and their peculiarities" which you can read here. Start reading at the text "The arms so constructed, consisting of a large number of pieces..." (near bottom of p. 9). The two paragraphs and diagram describe his solutions, e.g. ("...give a slight chamfer, or bevil, to the orifice of each chamber...") for the cylinder mouth.