Pattern help for SxS Navy Arms 12 ga.

I was given a Navy Arms 12 ga. SxS shotgun. It is a NWTF commemorative issue with 28 inch barrels. I would love to turkey hunt with this gun but I cannot seem to get a good enough pattern to make me feel confident in a clean kill.
I know loads/patterns has been a common subject.
I tried 4s and 6s (1 1/4-1 1/2 oz.)and a combo of both with 1 or 2 felt wads over the powder and an overshot card (only 1). I've used 80-100 gr. of FFG. I am shooting at 25 yards but only get 1-4 pellets in the head/neck area. Usually about 2 only.
I assume the barrels are open cylinder so not sure if there is anything I can do to tighten the pattern.
I have read several ideas about using shot cups or making them out of paper. I have not tried this yet.
Does anyone have a gun like this with the same issue? I hate to change the gun but have wondered if a gunsmith could put a choke on the barrels. I've never seen this on a SxS so not sure.
What little turkey hunting I do is for Osceolas in open pasture type areas so getting a shot much closer than 25 yards doesn't happen often.

I would rather leave the gun on the shelf to look at than wound a bird.

Thanks for your help.

I have another one now, and back in the 70's and 80's I used another exclusively for all my duck and upland game hunting. Both mine have been CYL.

The best way I found for tightening patterns was in an old article by Starr. He recommended a WAA12R wad on top of a lubed felt wad. With 1 1/4 oz of shot on top of 80 grains of 2f he reported getting MOD patterns from the CYL bore. I confirmed that in my own gun.

With the current SxS (It was actually made for NA by Pietta) I experimented with Goex 1f and got patterns at least as good. I like it because the best charge appears to be around 90 grains rather than 80 due to the slower burn rate, allowing me to use the same measure for both powder and shot rather than using two different measure.

Interesting enough Starr reported that by cutting the wad petals to half their length you could get IC patterns rather than MOD. Sure enough. It was real handy for me to be able to "change chokes" to meet the conditions in the field.

BTW- With that lubed felt wad under the WAA12R, there's zero plastic fouling, and whether due to the opening wad petals or moderate powder charge, zero tendency for the felt wads to blow through the pattern as some report.

I'm not a turkey hunter and can't say whether this loading technique will meet your needs. But it might be a fertile start to allow you to try other wads for even tighter patterns. Dunno, but please report back if you try it!

Hello Tarpon,

Try experimenting with 60-70 grains of powder, with the same shot loads. Also try to use a single thin (about 1/8") felt wad over your over-powder wad. Too much mass under the shot column, may have a tendency to open your pattern, hence experiment with the thin wads.

Reducing your powder charge should help to tighten up your pattern as well. As you already know, with turkeys it's getting the most pellets as you can into their small target area that does the trick. A high velocity open pattern is not nearly as effective a moderate velocity tight pattern.

I have not found the need to use plastic shot cups yet, but others have had very good success with them. Follow their advice, and experiment with those as well if needed.

You know your OS cards!

Just put 4-5 of them on your powder and then the shot, see how that does.

Then if there is an improvement, try making some paper shot cups.

You'll smile more :hatsoff:

B.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I wondered if it was possible to try 1 or 2 OS cards between the powder and shot instead of a felt wad. I only located one "spent" felt wad and it was at the target so I know they are traveling a long distance. Possibly interfering with the shot.

I think one of the Wally Worlds near me has some reloading stuff. I'll see if I can pick up some shot cups to try.

I may also try to make some shot cups using pillow ticking or paper as I have read on past posts.

I tried to measure the muzzle and it appears both barrels are the same. I know on modern shotguns the left barrel is usually the tighter choke. Would this gun be both barrels the same choke?

Having the muzzles identical almost certainly means they are cylinder. (In the past, I have found Brownbear's shotgun info to be spot on.)

TarponStalker said:

I tried to measure the muzzle and it appears both barrels are the same. I know on modern shotguns the left barrel is usually the tighter choke. Would this gun be both barrels the same choke?

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If they are the same, chances are good they are cylinder x cylinder. If they are choked, BP doubles are usually just like modern, left barrel is the tighter one.

Who is the Italian maker of your gun? It it's Pietta, they may well be cylinder bores, but if Pedersoli, most of them were choked.

Spence

The only manuf. markings I see reads Navy Arms Company Ridgefield N.J. That is on the top of the rib and there it also states #434. It is a NWTF 10th anniversary Edition 1973-1983. I also have the owners manual and it appears the gun was indeed made by Navy Arms.
It has a brass coin on the stock saying the same. The only place I haven't looked is under the lockplates.
I haven't tried any other loads yet. Found some plastic wads at GM this weekend but they only come in bags of 500. They weren't expensive but I really don't need this many even if it shoot great with them. Think I will try paper or ticking first.

TarponStalker said:

I also have the owners manual and it appears the gun was indeed made by Navy Arms.

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It would be very interesting to know if that is indeed the case. I always thought Navy Arms manufactured none of their guns. Are there no Italian marks under the barrels at the breech?

Spence

I'm with George, Navy Arms is an importer and distributor, not a maker. Although they sold a couple U.S. made guns many years ago, their stuff is mainly Italian made now. Also agree the most likely place to find proofing or makers marks is on the bottom of the barrels at the rear.

I bought one from Navy Arms in 84 or 85 and it was a Pietta as stated on the barrel. Nice gun, Cyl X Cyl, I still have it :thumbsup: .

I use 85 grains of 3fg powder and 1 1/8 oz. #7 1/2 shot for trap shooting in my 12 ga. sxs. Mine is a Navy Arms, made by Pietta, converted to flint. The barrels are jug choked, modified and improved. I have tried 2fg powder, but did not see any difference in pattern, and I have more 3fg so that is what I use.

For turkey I use the same load, except I use #5 shot. Have taken a few turkeys with it using this load. Most of my turkeys have been taken with my 20 ga. trade gun.

No Deer:

I apologize that my question is off-topic but that is a very sharp flintlock shotgun you have there! I have a Navy Arms 12 ga percussion SxS but have always longed for a flintlock SxS. I had no idea a percussion-> flintlock conversion could be done.

Who did the conversion to flintlock and how difficult/expensive/satisfying is it? What/whose locks did you use?

pm sent, didn't want to hijack this thread.

Bought that very same gun in 1979. Killed a few turkeys and a lot of squirrels with it. 1/3 more shot than powder. 80 grs 2f 110 grs of shot. More powder and it will open up the pattern try 80 grs 2f two over powder wads. 110 grs of shot and an over shot (thin) wad. I use a felt wad over the over powder wad soaked in Crisco about every third shot to keep the fowling soft on the skeet range. Be sure to do a penetration test.In the beginning I had great patterns but no punch. It does not take much to punch through paper. You need to be able to penetrate one side of a steel can. That will tell you your max killing distance. Not an aluminum pop can a steel bean can.Good luck that is a great gun. I have killed more game with it than any other gun I have. It is a great small game gun. It is the only gun I killed my limit in grouse with.

I pulled the barrel and the only marks I found actually puzzled me. On the back of each barrel's breech plug was stamped the number 20. Almost as if this is the gauge. I assumed it is a 12 gauge from what it looks like and the fact that a 12 gauge wad fits inside the barrel.
The only other mark is a small square with a mark inside it. Too small for me to read. I took a photo but haven't been able to post it yet.
Again these are on the plugs in the very back. The only other writing is where I mentioned before.
Thanks again for the load data and info provided.

measure the bore. if its around.720 its its 12ga. if its around .620 its 20ga.

Deer---

I would like to know who did that Cap-to-Flintlock on a double conversion as well.

I think that might be a new thread topic, too!

Many of us love flintlock doubles but you can't find em. Converting a double cap gun might be our only hope!