In Donald Grave's book Red Coats and Grey Jackets: the Battle of Chippawa 5 July 1814, on page 141 there is a x-ray picture of an american musket thrown away at Chateauguay in 1813 that is still loaded with a buck-and-ball load, buckshot on top.
-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Buck and Ball Load?
- Thread starter jon math
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
jon math said:
I'll surmise that is simply an indication of why smoothbores have been so popular for so long. And they still are in some primitive parts of the world. Almost anything you stuff in the front end will come out with deadly effect. Pebbles, broken glass, nails, etc. Even lead shot, even sizes or mixed.
I have a powder horn and shot horn that have been passed down in the family and the horn has shot from #7-1/2 or so on up to 0.25" intermixed. No idea the last time it was actually used but it does indicate the "use it up" mentality.
Wish the firearm they went with had come down as well.
Wish the firearm they went with had come down as well.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2009
- Messages
- 267
- Reaction score
- 158
You hear that a lot. I wonder if it was ever done more than once from the same gun? I certainly would not want to shoot anything I plan to eat with glass. And loads of steel nails, or rocks fired through an old soft metal barrel sounds like a fast way to ruin it. Even the old rock salt as a less than lethal load sounds suspect. How much corrosion damage would a load of salt do to the barrel just sitting loaded and waiting for the chicken thief to happen by? Not to mention what those hunks of rock salt must have turned to when the hammer fell; would they hold their shape or turn to powder? Either way being so light and misshapen they would have not patterned at all. I often wonder if a rock salt load was really just a blank load (a BP charge of salt peter and charcoal is, for all intents, made of a rock and salt). That might be a stretch, but who is to say.
I have shot B&B using paper cartridges, you tear the cartridge, pour powder down then the RB is run down the barrel with the 3 buck shot on top. The paper keeps everything togeather. B&B was ment for mass rank formations up to 70 yards at the most. Accuracy was not a factor in that load as you were just throwing large valumes of projectals at the other fellow and his comrades to thin out the ranks before a bayonet charge.
fyrfyter43
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2008
- Messages
- 769
- Reaction score
- 4
jon math said:
I can tell you from experience that there is nothing suspect about a load of rock salt. I've been shot with rock salt more than once as a teenager hanging out along the railroad tracks.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Getting back to the original topic, I do have to wonder why the desire to shoot buck and ball loads. Of course, experience showed that it was militarily a very effective combat load at short to medium smoothbore range but, other than punching paper to demonstrate that effectiveness, what would be the modern purpose for it? It certainly couldn't (or shouldn't) be used for hunting.
Rifleman1776 said:
Not just in primitive corners of the Earth, either. If I am not mistaken, aren't the new .410 loads designed to be used in the Taurus Judge revolver series essentially buck and ball loads? I believe they pack a large cylindrical pellet behind a few buckshot to be used as home/self defense rounds. Not musket caliber, obviously, but the concept seems to live to this day.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2009
- Messages
- 267
- Reaction score
- 158
Purely historical curiosity on my part.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
jon math said:
I understand and agree. Some seem to think it would be beneficial for hunting and that is simply not the case. Let us know how it does.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2009
- Messages
- 267
- Reaction score
- 158
I do see the load sometimes referenced with fowlers in old writings. I always assumed it was a common load for leaving in the gun when not hunting. In other words having the gun ready to defend against an intruder. In such an emergency having a “war” load ready to go would be prudent. Knowing how thrifty Yankees can be, I wonder how frequently loads like the buck and ball were pulled and replaced with a patched ball, or bird shot when it came time to go hunting.
Red Jacket
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2012
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 0
I've never used buck and ball hunting but I have shot bird and ball . that worked out OK. What happened was , I'm out loaded for squirrel with a Brown Bess and come on a deer . I drop a ball on top of the 6 shot and shoot . Little bit of a kick but it worked fine , shot was about 30 yards .
hanshi
Cannon
Buck and ball loads make sense for 18th century military action but for protection we have much better choices these days. As far as game is concerned, I don't see the advantage but would like to hear from anyone using the load successfully.
It was also a standard picket duty load for night watch.
Shoot first and ask "who goes there" later.
Shoot first and ask "who goes there" later.
My grandfathser told me of using horseshoe nail bits and pebbles on prarrie chickens and rabbits in a Lorenze civil war gun he bought at the turn of the century for .50 cents, the bore was pretty good after the firts 3-4 inches.This was in the Dakotas and Colorado in the very early 20th century (1900-1910ish), Don't know if this qualifies as a "first hand" account or not but I believe it happened pretty much as he told me.
I worked up a B&B load for a particular situation where a very close range to a trail comming out of a huge blackberrry patch was the goal I never used it but am confident that the extra 6 .30 balls into a deer at 10 yds or less would have increased the chances of the animal not going back into the thick stuff or at least leave a better blood trail if it did, but this was the only place/situation the load would have worked for nearly any where else one would have to let the animal pass, I think the load does have a place in hunting but a very llimited one and a person must be very deicated to the limitations and be absolutely, undoubtedly firm on not compromising the range of the load. I would not recommend it for the general hunting public and advise a lot of thought go into recognizing situations where it could be utilized which are few and far between IMHO.You have to go into it knowing that some very nice animals will have to be allowed to walk by at rather close ranges.
I worked up a B&B load for a particular situation where a very close range to a trail comming out of a huge blackberrry patch was the goal I never used it but am confident that the extra 6 .30 balls into a deer at 10 yds or less would have increased the chances of the animal not going back into the thick stuff or at least leave a better blood trail if it did, but this was the only place/situation the load would have worked for nearly any where else one would have to let the animal pass, I think the load does have a place in hunting but a very llimited one and a person must be very deicated to the limitations and be absolutely, undoubtedly firm on not compromising the range of the load. I would not recommend it for the general hunting public and advise a lot of thought go into recognizing situations where it could be utilized which are few and far between IMHO.You have to go into it knowing that some very nice animals will have to be allowed to walk by at rather close ranges.
For what it is worth, in the late 19th century a couple of gentlemen by the name of Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey and Lord Walsingham wrote a book called Shooting: Marsh and Moor in which they described poachers in the Scottish Highlands from previous generations as using "A bullet, several slugs, and some inches of powder." The reference to the "inches" of powder sounds like a bit of Victorian exaggeration, but the buck and ball load may be true.
I have read descriptions of frontiersmen using a handful of rifle balls as a musket load, and at Blue Licks in 1782 Daniel Boone used a fowling piece loaded four or five rifle balls and sixteen or eighteen buckshot, according to his son Nathan. I imagine that being on the receiving end of those loads could ruin your whole day. :shocked2:
One of these days I want to make myself a musket, just to try out these loads. :grin:
I have read descriptions of frontiersmen using a handful of rifle balls as a musket load, and at Blue Licks in 1782 Daniel Boone used a fowling piece loaded four or five rifle balls and sixteen or eighteen buckshot, according to his son Nathan. I imagine that being on the receiving end of those loads could ruin your whole day. :shocked2:
One of these days I want to make myself a musket, just to try out these loads. :grin:
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 3,005
- Reaction score
- 1,249
jon math said:
most likely never.............wadded ball most probably
Yeah, I agree. I have so far not found a single unequivocal description of using patched ball in smoothbores in the 18th century.Capt. Jas. said:
They did hunt a lot with a sort of buck-n-ball load, sometimes with ball plus swan shot, or just swan shot. Find quite a few reports of that, also a lot being used by civilians for defense, by highwaymen plying their trade, by Indians, etc. It was a very common loading back in the day.
Here's an interesting incident showing a man changing from swan to ball.
Spence
I was at a shoot a while back and was doing Ameican Militia 1820's and that there would be hostiles about in the woods walk. So I had rolled up 30 RB and 10 B&B cartridges w/65 g's FFG. Off we went 3 other shooters and a guide/scorer
The B&B did carnage to the hostiles out to 50 yrds. RB hit one and 2 buck hit another that was close behind. I was scored 1 hit per target but it showed what B&B will do.
The B&B did carnage to the hostiles out to 50 yrds. RB hit one and 2 buck hit another that was close behind. I was scored 1 hit per target but it showed what B&B will do.
