Can you see what I'm doing wrong?

[Travis186]

I made this video hoping to show you guys what I'm doing, and see if anyone can help me out here... I'm at the point of losing sleep over this now. Any, and all help, is greatly appreciated. Help me shoot better!

 

[doubleset]

Well, you're describing a problem that everyone has and is just more pronounced with muzzle loaders. You just need more practice and development of the muscles needed to shoot THOSE rifles offhand. Stop shooting off the bag and just start shooting a LOT offhand.

But a couple of other issues: Lock time. MUCH slower than what you're probably used to on other guns. This means that you MUST maintain sight picture (and "follow through") MUCH longer than with other guns (like your 45/70). The BP guns are balanced differently, lock time is slower -- meaning the time between pulling the trigger and the projectile exiting the barrel is long enough for you to really pull it off target with a movement you're not even noticing. It might help to get someone (preferably someone experienced in BP shooting, but not necessarily) to watch as you shoot. Oddly enough, my wife has the same problem with her AR-15 (but for different reasons) -- she anticipates the shot and pulls low to the right. We're working on this.

It's just a matter of practice. I'm constantly working on it myself. If you know the rifle is sighted in and can produce good groups off the bench, then stop shooting off the bench, practice shooting offhand, and concentrate on the "follow through" and maintaining sight picture longer than you would on cartridge guns.

"It will shift to the right ..." Not exactly. YOU are shifting it to the right. STOP IT!

 

[Travis186]

Well, you're describing a problem that everyone has and is just more pronounced with muzzle loaders. You just need more practice and development of the muscles needed to shoot THOSE rifles offhand. Stop shooting off the bag and just start shooting a LOT offhand.

But a couple of other issues: Lock time. MUCH slower than what you're probably used to on other guns. This means that you MUST maintain sight picture (and "follow through") MUCH longer than with other guns (like your 45/70). The BP guns are balanced differently, lock time is slower -- meaning the time between pulling the trigger and the projectile exiting the barrel is long enough for you to really pull it off target with a movement you're not even noticing. It might help to get someone (preferably someone experienced in BP shooting, but not necessarily) to watch as you shoot. Oddly enough, my wife has the same problem with her AR-15 (but for different reasons) -- she anticipates the shot and pulls low to the right. We're working on this.

It's just a matter of practice. I'm constantly working on it myself. If you know the rifle is sighted in and can produce good groups off the bench, then stop shooting off the bench, practice shooting offhand, and concentrate on the "follow through" and maintaining sight picture longer than you would on cartridge guns.

"It will shift to the right ..." Not exactly. YOU are shifting it to the right. STOP IT!

I shoot these things a lot, but I've just been compensating for the shift in POI... some guns I've given up on, like my Kibler, I just can't control it once it's off a rest apparently. It just seems strange to me that the POI will shift so dramatically, or group size in the case of the Kibler, even though I can call my shots. The front sight is always very near where I want it to be when the shot breaks, live fire or not. Maybe I am subconsciously bringing the front sight back on target after the shot has broken. Next time I'm at the range I'll get some live fire video.

 

[doubleset]

Also consider how you're shouldering the rifle. I find that I can't shoulder a BP rifle like I do a modern one. The stock is shaped quite a bit differently and the butt has to seat differently. I find that using a kind of "chicken wing" approach (trigger arm out at a right angle rather than close to the body) when shooting offhand appears to help a lot. It's possible (and I've found myself doing this) that in offhand I don't have a good and repeatable "cheek weld" and may be lifting my cheek off the stock to align the sights. That, of course, is a disaster. The chicken wing approach helps me with this.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

What “doubleset“ said and dry fire with a flint so we can see if you are flinching from the spark. When shooting offhand it can be hard to hold a steady sight picture. Perhaps you are jerking the trigger causing the rifle to move to the right as the sights pass across your target.

 

[deermanok]

I take what I've learned from archery to rifle shooting.
Form and follow through is everything.
Try changing your stance, keeping your body more perpendicular to the target, not facing it.
Left elbow tight to your gut and you'll have more support for the gun.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Do notice a major flinch when you get a flash in the pan? It took me a lot of shooting a flintlock until I learned to control it. Most of the time anyway.

 

[DuncNZ]

I don't think you can tell what is wrong by dry firing , when dry firing there is no anticipated flash to upset you .
I suspect you are flinching and pulling the trigger hard , which moves the barrel to the right .
I personally don't like the way you hold the forend , or in fact don't hold the forend .
I think balancing the rifle on your palm is not a secure way to hold your rifle ,same with resting your arm on your gut It can and will move .
It may work for indoor target shooting with a glove and sling but , in my experience not for long firearms , the relatively slow lock time , compared with what you are used to, may also be a factor , you must learn to follow through .
That long barrel sticking out unsupported is a wind vane and also develops momentum , if it starts to move it has to be stopped and brought back on target , without going back through the target .

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Kaboom and hold...hold.....hold.....when I shoot a crapper, 9 out of 10 times I moved too soon after the shot. Just my two cents.

 

[OkieDougie]

Shooting off hand is tough. No matter how easy Hickock45 makes it seem.

Something that might help is sight picture. Instead of trying to hold it dead still, instead do a very small figure 8 across the target. With the center of the 8 being the target as you squeeze the trigger.
I haven't ever shot a flintlock, but if you can charge the pan and shoot just the pan charge, while a coin lays flat on the end of the barrel, it would find a flinch real fast.

 

[Travis186]

I don't think you can tell what is wrong by dry firing , when dry firing there is no anticipated flash to upset you .
I suspect you are flinching and pulling the trigger hard , which moves the barrel to the right .
I personally don't like the way you hold the forend , or in fact don't hold the forend .
I think balancing the rifle on your palm is not a secure way to hold your rifle ,same with resting your arm on your gut It can and will move .
It may work for indoor target shooting with a glove and sling but , in my experience not for long firearms , the relatively slow lock time , compared with what you are used to, may also be a factor , you must learn to follow through .
That long barrel sticking out unsupported is a wind vane and also develops momentum , if it starts to move it has to be stopped and brought back on target , without going back through the target .

My stance is the typical Schuetzen shooting stance which is used for 200m off hand in my chosen shooting sport with the typical "figure 8", so if you have a better way of shooting off hand then what is taught by professional off hand shooters and has been for over 100 years now then by all means, and I mean this in the most respectful way, please let me know. Resting in the palm is how I can achieve my natural point of aim. You know, the whole close your eyes, shoulder the rifle, open them, if you're not on target change it.

The late Fred Ross, arguably one of the best Schuetzen shooters next to Harry Pope.

Kaboom and hold...hold.....hold.....when I shoot a crapper, 9 out of 10 times I moved too soon after the shot. Just my two cents.

Could be that, but I've gone back and watched videos of me shooting chickens and my cheek doesn't come off the rifle until the round has impacted steel or dirt... I feel it's the same way with the flinters. I think I need to video some live fire action to really see what's going on.

Shooting off hand is tough. No matter how easy Hickock45 makes it seem.

Something that might help is sight picture. Instead of trying to hold it dead still, instead do a very small figure 8 across the target. With the center of the 8 being the target as you squeeze the trigger.
I haven't ever shot a flintlock, but if you can charge the pan and shoot just the pan charge, while a coin lays flat on the end of the barrel, it would find a flinch real fast.

The figure 8 is what I do for all guns. I've done the coin trick, coin doesn't move.

I shot a video of me dry firing with sparks flying, but it doesn't look any different than the video I've already posted. Tomorrow I will retake the video, with some real powder in the pan.

 

[OkieDougie]

My stance is the typical Schuetzen shooting stance which is used for 200m off hand in my chosen shooting sport with the typical "figure 8", so if you have a better way of shooting off hand then what is taught by professional off hand shooters and has been for over 100 years now then by all means, and I mean this in the most respectful way, please let me know. Resting in the palm is how I can achieve my natural point of aim. You know, the whole close your eyes, shoulder the rifle, open them, if you're not on target change it.

The late Fred Ross, arguably one of the best Schuetzen shooters next to Harry Pope.
View attachment 129924

Could be that, but I've gone back and watched videos of me shooting chickens and my cheek doesn't come off the rifle until the round has impacted steel or dirt... I feel it's the same way with the flinters. I think I need to video some live fire action to really see what's going on.

The figure 8 is what I do for all guns. I've done the coin trick, coin doesn't move.

I shot a video of me dry firing with sparks flying, but it doesn't look any different than the video I've already posted. Tomorrow I will retake the video, with some real powder in the pan.

Hope you can figure it out. I am sure it is frustrating.

 

[Travis186]

Hope you can figure it out. I am sure it is frustrating.

It is. I think the fellas that think I may be flinching when there is some thunder in the pan is probably what is going on, it's the only thing that makes sense. The break might be clean, but where it goes wrong is that millisecond between the pan charge igniting and the rifle firing, and it all happens so fast I'm not noticing that I'm doing it. This is my suspicion after what has been said, but I don't know how to prove it, and then ultimately, fix it. Maybe some hypnosis and someone saying "you will not look at the flash" is what I need.

 

[Versanaut]

While a lot of folks will focus on your form, because that is what you are asking for coaching, I can't help but ask, in all of that shooting, how much have you REALLY played with the load development? 5 shot groups in 5 grain increments, Do that with FFFg and AGAIN with FFg, then AGAIN with a thinner patch, and then AGAIN with a thicker patch, then yet AGAIN wiping between shots, and you guessed it, again not wiping between shots for each powder and patch configuration. Am I crazy? Maybe... but that is what it took for me to calm down one of my smokepoles. She knows what she wants and she's not gonna tell ya, she'll show ya.

Regarding form, lots of good ideas up above my post. Takes a while to wean out the flinch. Dry fire will help a little, but you aren't anticipating the flash, heat, bang and recoil. I thought I had it licked myself, but when I set up a gopro to watch a bench session from the muzzles perspective back towards me.. Camera didn't lie, I was flinching still. Looks like you are doing a precision rifle hold.. or trying to anyway. If you are going to do that.. It only works if you do it all the way. Bone to bone contact. You have to throw that hip out there and that elbow has to TOUCH the hip. Its success is also a function of the firearm balance. If she's barrel heavy, that stance will be compromised and you may be better off with a 'shotgun' stance. Need more and different muscles though to stabilize that. And finally, follow through is everything. When shooting shotgun, it's a common lesson after the hammer is released to follow the biggest piece left to the ground. With the muzzleloader (or ANY firearm really), before, during, and AFTER the hammer falls, continue driving the sights towards the bullseye. How long? Until the smoke clears and you can SEE the target again in the sights.

Patience is key

 

[Travis186]

While a lot of folks will focus on your form, because that is what you are asking for coaching, I can't help but ask, in all of that shooting, how much have you REALLY played with the load development? 5 shot groups in 5 grain increments, Do that with FFFg and AGAIN with FFg, then AGAIN with a thinner patch, and then AGAIN with a thicker patch, then yet AGAIN wiping between shots, and you guessed it, again not wiping between shots for each powder and patch configuration. Am I crazy? Maybe... but that is what it took for me to calm down one of my smokepoles. She knows what she wants and she's not gonna tell ya, she'll show ya.

I hate to mention unmentionables, and caplocks, but it's the closest thing I can relate to. I spend a lot of time on load development, on every gun, whether it's muzzleloader, blackpowder cartridge, or smokeless cartridge. The load I shoot out of all of my flinters is the best possible load that could be worked up after multiple granulations, brands, ball, and patch sizes.

Also, the stance isn't a precision rifle stance, it's a standard schuetzen stance and one of the best off hand shooting stances there is, especially for a heavy rifle. It doesn't look like it from my extra padding, but my elbow is in my hip. I wasn't asking for critique on my form necessarily, more if anyone can see an issue between the shot breaking and me flinching, but as I said above... I think the flinch might be coming in that millisecond after the shot breaks where the flash begins and the rifle fires, and THAT, is not something I'm sure of how to fix and it's not something that can be seen by just dry firing, or even throwing sparks with a flint. Everything else I already know how to do, like follow thru, driving the front sight into the target etc... I shoot extremely well with an unmentionable off hand. Even on a relay, if I miss a chicken, I'm usually just hitting the rail just below it.

I also like what you did with your gopro... I may have to dig my old one out and try this.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Your lock definitely needs to be tuned. The frizzen isn't fully opening on firing. There's something dragging somewhere. Are all the internals of the lock well-polished? Is any part of the lock rubbing in the lock mortise?

 

[Travis186]

Your lock definitely needs to be tuned. The frizzen isn't fully opening on firing. There's something dragging somewhere. Are all the internals of the lock well-polished? Is any part of the lock rubbing in the lock mortise?

The frizzen is falling back on top of the flint. It doesn't do that when there isn't a thick piece of leather wrapped around it.

 

[deerstalkert]

Do you get spray back from the primer charge? this will induce a flinch. also just the flash can, but you seem to be as steady as a rock when dry firing. wish i was half that steady. had one observer ask me who i was waving at!
when i started flintlocks (1970ish) it took a long time to get used to the pan flash. now if i have a misfire i have to actually look to see if the prime burned. though as bad as my memory is I may just forget I saw it.

 

[Versanaut]

... And checked wiping and not wiping between shots? This very thing fixed a rifle for me 2 weeks ago. I had tried EVERYTHING, then had a match where it was a straight 20 shot string... Didn't swap targets which drives be to clean the bore. Best group in 2 years of shooting that thing.

Wild thought.. Bought used? Someone didn't try to 'cone' the barrel not using a proper tool perhaps? There will be many opinions on whether conning affects precision or not. But one thing is for sure, if it's not done uniformly it WILL ruin your barrel. I ruined my best shooter trying that.

 

[oldwood]

Couple years ago , I had to unteach an old Marine , and State trooper , how he was taught to hold a rifle. He obtained a custom copy of an original Lehigh Valley longrifle. We started with his shooting from a bench. We loaded the rifle , a .50 flinter. ,and I stood back as he took a position on the rifle rest. I saw he crained his neck forward on the stock , making his sight picture awkward to obtain ,and uncomfortable . We addressed that by having him just lay his head , cheek on top of the comb of the stock , so the sight image was repeatable and comfortable. He had instinctively shot his M 16 using an elbow position that was at a 45 degree angle from his shoulder. That's ok from the bench , but not as effective in offhand shooting. The best offhand arm /shoulder position ,is actually a shotgun trap shooting position using the arm out at a right angle to the body , with the cheek sitting on the comb of the rifle. When the trigger is squeezed , and a firm grip is taken forearm and wrist holding the but firmly into the shoulder , preparation for each shot is repeatable , and consistent. The shot will be accurate and consistent. Once we ironed out his position , he could really shoot , and unfortunately , more consistently than me in offhand practice. .................oldwood