working up load for Rem 58

[Melnic]

OK, just got in my Pietta Rem 58
Shot for first time today. 12 shots @25 yards
My hands were resting on a bag, barrel was not resting on anything. trigger pull is a nice 4lbs on it.
I shot 20g of FFF Goex
I used the balls, wads and grease disks that came with the gun. Balls I measured at about .451 (some spots were .445).
It shot about 4" low. groups were a large 6-8".
Should I be using a larger ball?
What starting point and increment should I use to work up an accuracy load @25 yards?

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

.454 balls, a wonder wad

27 grains of FFFg Goex (+ or - 3 grains as YOUR gun likes)

Wins competitions & harvests meat!

How ya pour the charge is important: Pour, tap to settle, then pour to top-off, tap to settle, then swing the funnel into battery & pour charge without spilling all over the loading bench. I use the RMC red plastic tubes to accomplish this. Have several hundred tubes in multiple cigar boxes, each for a separate gun/qty of charge.

Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert in ML Pistol

 

[Bear Rider]

Your balls should be large enough in diameter that you are cutting a ring of lead when you seat them. If not, they are too small. This may allow the balls to slide forward from recoil, which will affect accuracy and in an extreme case may damage the cylinder. It may also result in a chain fire.

 

[rodwha]

I've seen posted results showing the same charge but moving up to a .454" ball gave a higher velocity over the .451", a .457" ball better than the .454" ball.

 

[dikman]

Pietta recommend a .454 ball for the .44 cal revolver. As for shaving a lead ring, if you want to do that fine although as far as I'm concerned it just means that you're putting extra strain on the loading lever. As long as the ball is a tight fit to start with, i.e. it sits on top of the chamber and can't be pushed in without "some" force from the loading lever then it will seal ok.

If you want to check just how good the seal is for yourself, ram a ball into each chamber (without powder, of course), remove the nipples and knock out the balls. If you have a nice flat band around the circumference then it's sealing.

 

[Melnic]

The 451 balls are shaving a small ring.
I tried .457 balls today and it shaves a bigger ring. I shot at 25feet though and not supported.

I'm using a seperate loading stand so cylinder is off the gun.

 

[dikman]

If the .451 are shaving a ring, then I see little point in going to a bigger size as it means they will be a tight enough fit. (Uberti recommends .451 for my Remmie, they do not shave a ring but are a tight fit).

There's a lot of trial and error with these guns (at least, that's what I'm finding!). Consistency with the powder load is most important, like smokin .50 I measure mine out into small containers (a range requirement) and find it very convenient. This way I can have different loads pre-packaged if I'm experimenting. Then there's the use of wads/grease pills/filler, you have to try and figure out what works best for your gun.

Plus you need to shoot off a rest of some sort (to try and eliminate the human variable as much as possible) until you get a consistent load worked out.

Some people get discouraged by all this messing around, but I'm enjoying the challenge.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

To all:

Most '58 Remmys I've seen will work fine with .454's. The most accurate C&B pistols I own are Colts with fixed sights.

The Remmys do not allow the rammer on the loading lever to fully seat a ball down on a 20 grain charge. The "stroke" won't allow this. So it becomes somewhat popular to feed the gun cereal on top of the powder to bring the balls in contact with a universally compacted powder charge from chamber to chamber, which results in a lower sdv (standard deviation of velocity). And it also brings the balls closer to the chamber mouths to avoid "jumping" into the forcing cone. My 27 grain charge lets me use a single lubed wonder-wad & maintain uniform seating depth which results in a lower sdv, which in turn tightens my groups. THIS explanation is how the science of C&B revolvers WORKS. The 27 grain charge lets me use the loading lever at a full downward stroke for each chamber, so the balls are all seated to a uniform depth....

Your mileage may vary, but I doubt it very much. My load is accurate to 50 yards & beyond. Proper & consistent measurement of the powder charge is where accuracy starts. Do EVERYTHING the SAME each time and the groups tighten-up!

Please try it my way & report back. And if you have access to a Chrono, use that tool as well to see for yourselves.

Continued successes to all.

Dave

 

[aross007]

I agree with 98% of what Smokin 50 says. I would try the 27 gr to see how well it works for you, but I would also try smaller loads with corn meal/cream of wheat filler as well. I use 23 gr 3F filled with corn meal compressed with the loading lever or stand till the ball just clears. A 50-50 mix of beeswax and synthetic motor oil as a lube/sealer on top of the ball.

On the issue of ball size, all of the shooters whose results I respect slug the barrel, ream the chambers to match the groove diameter, and then use .457 balls. The idea is that you don't want the chamber "sizing" the balls so that they rattle down the barrel.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Howdy! For sure what you say is dead-nuts the way to make one-hole groups in paper.

I try to get folks to do everything they can do PRIOR to reamin' the chambers, so that they will benefit from the result. Just startin'-out in the hobby you really don't benefit from the xtra work. Because your groups/shots tend to be all over the place until ya get a "feel" for the six-gun.

Take 'er easy!

Dave

 

[FishDFly]

I've seen posted results showing the same charge but moving up to a .454" ball gave a higher velocity over the .451", a .457" ball better than the .454" ball.

X's count, not velocity, that is what wins matches.

 

[aross007]

Now I'm approaching 100% agreement with Dave - that's scary! He's right about there being no hurry to get your cylinder reamed unless you have already decided to make this a top notch target gun.

Richard is right that for some of us, X's count the most. For others, you just want to ring the gong or hit the can, and you can probably get there with any ball that fills the cylinder. (Check the video of the chain fire on another thread here before you decide that a loose ball is OK.)

I could come up with an explanation for Richard's comment about increased velocity with larger balls, but it would be purely an example of MAS (male answer syndrome - the desire to provide an answer for any question) so I'll abstain.

Alan

 

[Melnic]

So,
I have one of these:
Revolver Cylinder Loading Stand

I was thinking that I won't get consistent loading depth unless I make some sort of stop on the arm to control seating depth. Is that something worth while?

 

[FishDFly]

Most line shooters use some type of cylinder loading stand.

They drop the powder into five (5) chambers, one at a time. Then they drop so many grains of Cream Of Wheat or Corm Meal into each loaded chamber, one at time. Each person has their own preference for filler.

COW does not compress at all, Corm Meal does.

If the measurements are done correctly, grains of powder for accuracy and grains of filler to fill the void, when the ball is seated, the sprue will be just short of the cylinder face. This minimizes the ball jump into the forcing cone.

Top off each chamber with your favorite concoction after seating the balls.

I feel that using a loading stand allows a person to have a better feel when seating the ball versus using the loading lever on the pistol. Loading stands are not near as hard on your hand.

If you manage to damage the components on the loading assembly on a ROA, Ruger has none for sale any more.

 

[Melnic]

So with a filler, your compressing till it won't compress anymore using a consistant pressure and it thus seats about the same place?

 

[FishDFly]

Yep, you are correct.

One problem with COW, is if you put a bit too much, sometimes it can be a challenge to seat the ball below the face of the cylinder, it does not compress as mentioned.

Remedy is pull the nipple, dribble a minute amount of powder out of the chamber, replace the nipple and seat the ball a touch deeper.

I use 2 pistol powder measurers, 0 to 30 grains, one stays on the small powder holder and one stays on a squeeze bottle of filler. Powder of the left side of the pistol and filler on the right.

 

[BowerR64]

I dont care what anyone else says IMO wads cause accuracy issues because they stick to the ball and can change the way the ball flies out of the barrel.

I used them at first because of the whole chainfire scare but im past that and now my concern is hitting where i aim. Ive found the filler really helps for this. Dont ask me why it works i cant explain it but it just does.

I use 20 grains just becasue its a nice round number for 15 yards shooting at paper. The recoil is about right, the smoke is about right and the bang is about right.

 

[rodwha]

Not everyone here is competing in matches. I'd venture to say that most don't. I'd even think more here are into hunting more than match shoots, but I'd be way out on a limb that I'm not comfortable putting myself on to.

There is certainly something to be said by the fellow's experience. Hard to say whether or not it decrease group sizes, but it certainly improves the paper performance, which may very well effect the group size. Good, bad, ugly, I do not know.

And I never stated anything other than it increased the velocity with the same charge. He never gave an accuracy report.

fdf...

 

[FishDFly]

Not sure how ball diameter could affect velocity.

Maybe Alan will help, he has more experience than I do.

 

[FishDFly]

I started using wads as they were recommended here and went to a filler after shooting with experienced shooters.

I have been lucky to shoot next to some of the best shooters, they all use a filler of some sort.

Most line shooters use the least amount of powder they can get by with.