Are Some BP Revolvers Just Not Reasonably Accurate?

[Smokerr]

When I miss, it’s always the guns fault.

No its your fault for not having a large enough caliber!

 

[Smokerr]

I have 2 '60 Armys (U) with 45acp Kirst conversions installed. The original front sights were too short so I replaced them with 1872 Open Top sights which are somewhat taller.

Got it, not at all conversant with the Conversions available.

 

[No Answers]

I have had luck with 25 grain in .44 and 15 in .36 my accuracy seems OK. I use a lubed wad over powder. My question is does anyone actually use filler . Cream o wheat etc. I don't have any plans to try. Just wondering if it really makes a deference bringing the ball up closer to forcing cone.

The best load in my rifle is with cream of wheat filler. It has been so long since I shot my pistols that I can't remember the loads I used for them, and if I wrote them down, forgot where I put that info. Guess I better bench rest my pistols, and I'll try the filler.

 

[rickystl]

I have three C&B revolvers. 2-60' Armies and 1-51 Navy. On each one I did three things: 1. A 3-lb. trigger pull. 2 An 11-degree cut on the forcing cone. 3. A taller front sight. After that, the pistols would shoot where you point them.

Rick

 

[86Dragoon]

Here are some 5 shot Walker loads with ball and bullets at 25 yards. Aiming point was bottom of green circle on all groups.
This was right out of the box with a trigger job and arbor end fit.
I'm going to cut a dovetail and fit a new front blade along with a loading rod catch up front.
This was shot from a sand bag rest and bench.

Black Powder Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI Caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET GOEX VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
FFFg (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) Goex Powder lot
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr., .457" Lee Round Ball
fill+wad 20 801, 43 Sd 1.76 1.93 1.84
wad only 25 738, 31 Sd 1.99 2.58 2.24 92MY20B
931, 32 Sd 1.42 2.40 1.88 93JA12B
30 971, 15 Sd 1.79 2.20 2.00
35 1010, 9 Sd 1.50 3.96 2.13
41 1041, 10 Sd 2.46 4.50 3.46 92MY20B
1228, Sd 27 2.22 4.14 3.36 93JA12B
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16 22 725, 30Sd 1.93 2.71 2.40
wad, no fill 20 30 883, 30Sd 1.21 2.52 1.80
25 35 947, 26Sd 2.17 2.68 2.42
no wad/fill 30 41 1201, 27Sd 2.29 3.18 2.53

200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, no fill 20 30 836, 29Sd 1.28 2.42 1.91
25 35 914, 41Sd 1.08 2.43 1.82He3re is the thing with BP pistols. The more powder you put in the larger your bullet spread.

 

[azmntman]

25 yards out the door of the Corolla. Ya, cab n ball can be accurate. This is a 1851 Pietta with 17 gr and a round ball. Daughter shot at about 15 yards and got an even better group OFFHAND

Had a CVA mnt pistol that would hit a quarter EVERY shot at 25 yards. 30-35 yards group opened up quite a bit. Dumbest sale I ever did. Was young n needed "weekend" money.

 

[nick_1]

I am All about benching just don't do it from distsnces where the powder is burning the paper.

 

[Relic shooter]

Coincidentally, I just took my new (to me) and fired only once before Uberti 1861 Navy to the range today to check the accuracy. First cylinder at urban combat distance (is that a term?) of about 7 yards with a bench rest gave one ragged hole at POA. My indoor pistol range is only about 18 yards deep but I next ran the target out all the way and shot another 6 rounds and another ragged hole. I was using 20 grains 3f Schuetzen and .375 hand cast ball. I wish now I had taken pictures. Accuracy fell off with greater fouling but after 36 rounds I still had a 3-4 inch group.

So to answer the question in the thread title I would have to ask, “Are some BP revolvers just real accurate?” Mine appears to be more accurate than I am at least without that bench rest.

With replica revolvers I personally have obtained much better out of the box accuracy with later mfg Uberti pistols that have faster twist rifling.

During my 60+ years of shooting & restoring revolvers, most has been with original Colts & Remingtons.
In my opinion as a former dealer, competitor & gunsmith Uberti produces the closest reproduction revolvers with good tolerances with exception that no company produces revolver barrels with deeper rifling with faster progressive twist rifling found on originals, with exception to 'limited editions' manufactured for International competition or gunsmiths who replaced the barrels with custom fast twist rifling.

The cylinder arbors on many open frame replica Colt revolvers do have tolerance issues that affects accuracy & fortunately forum member
Mike /45D has the skills to make revolvers produce excellent accuracy if you lack the skills & tooling to do it yourself.
Relic shooter

 

[M. De Land]

I have 2 '60 Armys (U) with 45acp Kirst conversions installed. The original front sights were too short so I replaced them with 1872 Open Top sights which are somewhat taller.
Here's a comparison:
View attachment 304473

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

 

[Relic shooter]

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

Very clever solution M.D.L. !!
Relic shooter

 

[Bad Karma]

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

Nice! I’m fairly OCD but I could live with that solution…

 

[Smokerr]

I am All about benching just don't do it from distances where the powder is burning the paper.

Now that would be interesting. Probably get a quick cease fire. I did set a towel a-smoldering a few weeks back.

 

[Smokerr]

Black Powder Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI Caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET GOEX VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
FFFg (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) Goex Powder lot
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr., .457" Lee Round Ball
fill+wad 20 801, 43 Sd 1.76 1.93 1.84
wad only 25 738, 31 Sd 1.99 2.58 2.24 92MY20B
931, 32 Sd 1.42 2.40 1.88 93JA12B
30 971, 15 Sd 1.79 2.20 2.00
35 1010, 9 Sd 1.50 3.96 2.13
41 1041, 10 Sd 2.46 4.50 3.46 92MY20B
1228, Sd 27 2.22 4.14 3.36 93JA12B
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16 22 725, 30Sd 1.93 2.71 2.40
wad, no fill 20 30 883, 30Sd 1.21 2.52 1.80
25 35 947, 26Sd 2.17 2.68 2.42
no wad/fill 30 41 1201, 27Sd 2.29 3.18 2.53

200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, no fill 20 30 836, 29Sd 1.28 2.42 1.91
25 35 914, 41Sd 1.08 2.43 1.82He3re is the thing with BP pistols. The more powder you put in the larger your bullet spread.

I am having a serious problem breaking down the details. I am guessing GOEX powder, grs but not stated weight or volume (I prefer weight as volume measures vary quite a bit)

The wad and fill + wad. Filler and what kind? (20 -shots?) 43 Standard Deviation (I would think high and low aka spread) - 801 FPS 1.76 1.93 and average 1.93 average inches.

Then I see 931 with no measure of powder.

Then fill 16 and 22. Fill of 16 ? and Fill of 22 grs powder?


Wad only? 738 (again FPS) and that much drop and why would filler boost it?

 

[m-g willy]

My basis of feeling for what I want is a 4 inch group at 25 yards. Kind of traditional test distance when I was doing my early pistol shooting and usually if they have any integrity, that is what they test at now as well (I have seen em cheat with shorter distances and it is, if it can't go any better than that its a loss). I saw an uber expensive gussied up 1911 and they were getting 2.5 inches at 25 yards and raving at the accuracy. Hmm, gun magazine, bought off, I expect the lowest cost gun out of the box to do that.

I am going to have to do the discipline thing and just test the ASP NMA at 15 feet and see what the pattern is. Same with the Pietta. I had target out at 45 feet Sunday and the ROA and the 47 Walker out and was getting sub 4 inch groups at that distance.

I tried the Pietta NMA again Sunday and the shots were all over the place, pretty sure a couple hit the target frame 24 inch wide or missed entirely.

Both those guns have the same twist and erratic shooting from both. I have tried .457/.454 and .451 balls (and a round of JD conical).

The ASP I will keep for its sentimental value. The Pietta NMA (target) I may just sell (I have spare cylinders with it). It just does not seem like either one is worth shooting much. Waste of powder and worse caps.

 

[m-g willy]

Those who have told you that your cylinder mouth might be to small is spot on.
I have had Uberti 1858 Remington reproduction that shot patterns at 25 yards of 12- 16” at 25 yards .
I the chamber mouths measured .444-.446
The barrel measured .450
I got a .451 reamer and reamed the chamber mouths and the gun easily shoots under 4” at 25 yards now.
I also had the same results with an 1860 after reaming the chamber mouths ..
But on the 1860 I also had to address the short arbor issue.

 

[M. De Land]

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

Nice! I’m fairly OCD but I could live with that solution…

Yeah,it would work well in the front sights that have the half moon mortise seat and are soldered/brazed in place. I never could stand to look at a front blade bent or turned out of TDC for windage. Actually many windage and elevation issues can be solved with aligning and equal distancing barrel cylinder gap and lower lug fitting.
Forcing cones on the other hand should always be set up square to the bore line especially with conical shooting. Once the bullet base is no longer square to the bore nothing good happens for accuracy although balls will usually handle misalignment better.
A couple of things I've discovered about forcing cone cutting is that for ball shooting one wants about half the ball diameter depth and the top edge of the cut always works better if left sharp profiled with only a slight edge chamfer.
Also cutting the cone to deep detracts from accuracy even if in alignment.
We actually have gauges for setting this up for bullet shooting cartridge barrels.
Another thing that helps revolver accuracy is lapping out tight spots usually found under the threads on solid frame guns and toward the muzzle in open frame guns I check with plug gauges.
Some interesting observations made over a long time.

 

[Smokerr]

I got a .451 reamer and reamed the chamber mouths and the gun easily shoots under 4” at 25 yards now.

Where do you get the reamers for that?

 

[M. De Land]

Where do you get the reamers for that?

I have had good success using simple chucking reamers with a 45 degree lead in angle. I've done it by hand feeling the reamer in but setting up in mill or drill press after dead centering each chamber is a more precise method of depth and square control.

 

[Siringo]

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

Here's a little deal I dreamed up for off setting a front sight without having to cut a dovetail that might be of use to some. I did this on a trapdoor I re-barreled and cut a new front sight purchase in the front entragal barrel band after indexing it to top dead center. It's more effective with the long sight radius of a rifle barrel than revolver but is useful here as well so all the windage does not have to happen in the hammer notch. It is quite deceptive because it is offset .050 but looks as though it is TDC from most prospectives.

Sure wish someone made a slip on band or clamp on like this! I have an 1861 and 1866 that both need front sight offsets of 0.05/06. Weird that both are the same. I’m beginning to wonder if that was intentional for some reason (like bullet drift).