Using Nitro Powder?

[Otter]

Does anyone use modern bullet propellent for muzzleloading guns? I have heard "no" for that so many times.

I have heard that in Europe, they do use it for their muzzleloaders and call it "nitro" since it's the nitrocellulose based stuff. They do that to reduce smoke at indoor ranges. Obviously they can't use it at a 1:1 ratio like you can with blackpowder substitutes. Is that true?

Since modern powder is much more powerful, it must be dosed weight. I've done some reloading. I would think that you can use nitro safely for muzzleloaders if you get the chamber pressures right.

Does anyone do this? Thanks

Ya'll go ahead and give it a try, young feller, if common sense means nothing to you. If you are able to type with the few fingers ya have left, get on here and give us a detailed report. I would advise against it, though. "Why" and "Why not" can be the most dangerous word(s) in our language.

 

[fredrader]

Once I'm no longer a broke student, I will do some destructive testing (partly as an excuse to blow some stuff up). I'll get a used in-line and load it with modern powder to low pressures. Then I'll strap it to a tire, tie a string around the trigger, and set it off from behind a tree. I'll repeat until it blows the gun apart or I get bored.

Here is a link to some pics of exploding inlines with black powder.. http://cvaguncases.com/Photographs_Page.html

 

[token tory]

In a desperate attempt to get through to you BEFORE you hurt yourself.
Modern powders, yes all of them, are "progressive".
That means they burn PROGRESSIVELY faster the higher the pressure they are burning at.
So the idea of say trying 15 gr load, then upping to a 16 gr load, based on the burn rate of the 15 gr load is utter rubbish. The pressure, both in levels & sharpness of peaks will change exponentially as the pressure increases.

Now If you are "clever" :youcrazy: enough to maim yourself trying something you obviously do NOT fully understand I can't stop you.
I can strongly suggest you do some serious research BEFORE you give the anti-gunners a poster child for how "dangerous" shooting is.

 

[Billnpatti]

Because you like Chemistry and testing materials, you are obviously quite familiar with scientific methodology. Therefore, I am sure you will have some way of gleening more from your experiment than a loud boom. Perhaps you could borrow a strain gauge from one of your Physics Profs and document the pressures and their gradients for each of the loads that you propose to test. It may be an interesting experiment to fire various loads of black powder in your rifle and document the pressure gradient generated by each load. Then repeat the experiment using the smokeless powder of your choice. I think you will find that your rifle will fail with smokeless powder at a much lower pressure than you were able to generate with your black powder loads. The pressure gradient data will tell the tail. Once you have your data, you might then consider publishing a paper on the subject.
That is, providing you have designed and conducted your experiment in a safe and responsible manner and are still alive and able to publish a paper.
Just somethign to think about. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[Norinco]

I said I would tie the gun to a tire and pull the trigger by a string while I'm behind a tree.

I'm interested as to if the gun fails because the barrel simply shatters or if the barrel weakens first from stretching, then shatters.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

The no needs a reason.

the reason, muzzleloader barrels are not made to handle the pressure that smokeless powder builds up. If you dont like your face, go a head and shoot smokeless in your muzzleloader. Im sure the clean up crew will be kind enough to pick up whats left of your face and deliver it to your family in a coffee can.

 

[Norinco]

Already answered. It's not the pressure that's bad, but the rate at which it builds up.

 

[Dphar]

Does anyone use modern bullet propellent for muzzleloading guns? I have heard "no" for that so many times.

I have heard that in Europe, they do use it for their muzzleloaders and call it "nitro" since it's the nitrocellulose based stuff. They do that to reduce smoke at indoor ranges. Obviously they can't use it at a 1:1 ratio like you can with blackpowder substitutes. Is that true?

Since modern powder is much more powerful, it must be dosed weight. I've done some reloading. I would think that you can use nitro safely for muzzleloaders if you get the chamber pressures right.

Does anyone do this? Thanks

I consider this a silly question so here is a somewhat (but only somewhat) tongue and cheek response
We don't use smokeless propellants in MLs because we don't care for the distinctive sound of flying shrapnel, the look and smell of blood, grossly mangled body parts and all the screaming and crying that such things bring about.

Its like a hunting guide I know told a hunter who was determined to go out of camp in bad weather.
He told him that when he finally realized he was lost and was not getting back to camp that he should find a dead fall log and drap himself over it so he would fit on a horse easily if they found him.
If you insist on using anything but the makers recommended propellants be sure you have a good insurance policy, life, heath and disability. Oh and leave the wife and kids home. The kids don't need to see this. Warn any shooters in the area as well so they can take precautions.
Interestingly enough it IS possible to shoot smokeless in MLs with no blown barrels, sometimes for several shots. But sooner or later :shake:
"It" will happen. This from a friend who has researched blowups for years.
Part of this is over pressure and part is POOR IGNITION OF THE CHARGE, which changes the burn rate to that of HE sooner or later usually in just a few shots even in cartridge guns. Smokeless needs a LOT of fire to light PROPERLY. Give it weak ignition and it will BLOW almost any firearm modern or otherwise when all the conditions line up right.
Given the design of the ML breech found in the vast majority of guns there is NO WAY to assure proper ignition even if you cobbled up some rifle primer system.
The inline that was *designed to use smokeless powder* had a frightening propensity toward blowing up.
So the recommendation? DON'T DO IT. Not even with a long string to fire the gun. NO! NO! NO!.
Getting blackpowder is sometimes difficult but its far easier than regrowing a new hand or head.

Dan

 

[squirrellluck]

Before you start repeat after me,"Hold my beer and watch this" :nono:

 

[Norinco]

I have blackpowder, don't use inlines/sabots/209/modern stuff, and don't do stupid things without taking precautions.

I can't see any danger in doing destructive tests if there is a barricade between me and the test subject.

Of course, anything I do is years down the road. It will be a while before I have disposable income. Until then, I'm scrounging up money for a Remington 1858 to enjoy with blackpowder and percussion caps.

 

[luieb45]

The no needs a reason.

I'm not going to try this. I'm just wondering if it's possible. If lab were to tell me what loads produce safe pressures, then I may try this.

Have you read the side of your gun's barrel? Most production guns these days have the markings,"use blackpowder or pyrodex only." If you were to try the smokeless powder in your gun it would create too much pressure for your gun to handle and would explode with you in a pine box or where your arms are now would only be a stump. People have made the mistake before using smokeless powder in ml's and it blew up in their face.

 

[Norinco]

But I still want to see quantitative data on what would happen. It's pretty obvious that the gun would blow apart, but I want to see how the steel would change before that happens.

ANY TESTS DONE WILL BE MANY YEARS FROM NOW WITH PROPER PRECAUTIONS TAKEN AND CAREFUL DATA OBSERVED. What I would like to do is measure the barrel diameters between shots. If I end up being a metallurgist or something, I would do X-ray or sonar analysis between shots, only taking one shot per week or so.

I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING STUPID STUFF, JUST A SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT.

 

[David W.]

Already answered. It's not the pressure that's bad, but the rate at which it builds up.

No, it's not JUST the way the pressure builds up, it's also the amount of pressure.

 

[David W.]

But I still want to see quantitative data on what would happen. It's pretty obvious that the gun would blow apart, but I want to see how the steel would change before that happens.

ANY TESTS DONE WILL BE MANY YEARS FROM NOW WITH PROPER PRECAUTIONS TAKEN AND CAREFUL DATA OBSERVED. What I would like to do is measure the barrel diameters between shots. If I end up being a metallurgist or something, I would do X-ray or sonar analysis between shots, only taking one shot per week or so.

I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING STUPID STUFF, JUST A SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT.

You will have to excuse us, we do not take safety lightly here on this forum. We also already know what will happen if somkeless powder is used. The barrel will split and also throw off metal fragments.

I think it is about time to close this thread. Moderators, what say ye?

 

[ozark57]

Attend the Church of you choice. It's a much better way to get to know god better!

 

[JayDee Flohr]

I always tell people that ask this question the following.........Sure you can shoot smokeless in a muzzleloader...........once !!!!!!

Bottom line is it doesn't matter "why". It will and that's good enough for everyone that's given you sound advice.

 

[Norinco]

Chemistry guys will always ask why, then want to see a demonstration.

Back in High School AP Chem, my techer told us "there are old chemists, and there are bold chemists, but never old bold chemists."

 

[David W.]

Moderators, Please close this thread!

 

[Norinco]

Yep, I got my question answered.

Though none of the Europeans chimed in on if there is a blackpowder substitute available in Europe that's not a one to one replacement.

 

[Maestro]

Sometimes it's best to learn from the mistakes of others rather than to repeat them.

Question's been answered... no sense to :dead: any longer.