Modern powder in a muzzleloader

[Tasbay]

Now from the get-go lets understand I would never use a modern propellant ( ie: For modern cartridge ammunition) in a muzzleloader, I`m a Black Powder Muzzleloader Shooter Period. My understanding is black Powder has about 1/3rd the power of modern propellants.

When we hear to never use modern propellant in a muzzleloader is it due to the load factor, say putting 100 grains of W760 in a Hawken. You would have to be mad if you think that's going to turn out well.
Or does it also include loads that would be considered normal for a modern firearm, say 35-45 grains of W760 in the same Hawken with a patch and ball.

I have no interest in doing it but would just like some insight as to what testing has been done on the subject and is it generally accepted that rule is for cases where an equivalent load of modern propellant has been used instead of Black Powder.

 

[jdw276]

My guess is CVA etc has tested it extensively. Reason is to be able to defend themselves against lawsuits from folks that cannot or will not read. Never to be published but used in self defense only. Put it out there and the village dummies will use it. Not good.

 

[wiscoaster]

 

[waarp8nt]

I do not know of any actual studies, there are some videos on YouTube of barrels being blown up, looks like someone just posted the links.

Also, not exactly what your looking for, however it is interesting reading regarding a man clearly at fault, yet wins a lawsuit because the jury felt sorry for him.

https://casetext.com/case/stroklund-v-thompsoncenter-arms-company-2
Just remember it only takes one to make the company to use a warning label.

Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals. Husqvarna ~ A Swedish Chainsaw Company

 

[Salty Cracker]

Now from the get-go lets understand I would never use a modern propellant ( ie: For modern cartridge ammunition) in a muzzleloader, I`m a Black Powder Muzzleloader Shooter Period. My understanding is black Powder has about 1/3rd the power of modern propellants.

When we hear to never use modern propellant in a muzzleloader is it due to the load factor, say putting 100 grains of W760 in a Hawken. You would have to be mad if you think that's going to turn out well.
Or does it also include loads that would be considered normal for a modern firearm, say 35-45 grains of W760 in the same Hawken with a patch and ball.

I have no interest in doing it but would just like some insight as to what testing has been done on the subject and is it generally accepted that rule is for cases where an equivalent load of modern propellant has been used instead of Black Powder.

Huh? Too much time on your hands?

 

[Tasbay]

I do not know of any actual studies, there are some videos on YouTube of barrels being blown up, looks like someone just posted the links.

Also, not exactly what your looking for, however it is interesting reading regarding a man clearly at fault, yet wins a lawsuit because the jury felt sorry for him.

https://casetext.com/case/stroklund-v-thompsoncenter-arms-company-2
Just remember it only takes one to make the company to use a warning label.

Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals. Husqvarna ~ A Swedish Chainsaw Company

Greif so he used modern pistol powder and thought that was ok. It does not state the load but I would assume in the vicinity of 80-100 grains.

 

[Tasbay]

Huh? Too much time on your hands?

Yep too many hours on the weed whacker (scrub Cutter) this week.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Doo daaaa

 

[Tumbledown]

Now from the get-go lets understand I would never use a modern propellant ( ie: For modern cartridge ammunition) in a muzzleloader, I`m a Black Powder Muzzleloader Shooter Period. My understanding is black Powder has about 1/3rd the power of modern propellants.

Your understanding is dangerously wrong. It is not a matter of power, but the speed of combustion and resulting pressure spike. Guns made for BP simply cannot handle the stress most smokeless powders induce.

When we hear to never use modern propellant in a muzzleloader is it due to the load factor, say putting 100 grains of W760 in a Hawken. You would have to be mad if you think that's going to turn out well.
Or does it also include loads that would be considered normal for a modern firearm, say 35-45 grains of W760 in the same Hawken with a patch and ball.

I have no interest in doing it but would just like some insight as to what testing has been done on the subject and is it generally accepted that rule is for cases where an equivalent load of modern propellant has been used instead of Black Powder.

You cited one specific smokeless powder. There are dozens of powders, with different burn rates and pressure spikes. They are not interchangeable, using the wrong smokeless in reloading can be just as disastrous as using it in a muzzleloader.

The only time any smokeless should be used in a BP gun is when that gun is a cartridge gun, and that powder is specifically designed and tested for such use. Even then, one needs to follow published loading data. (Given cartridge guns aren't discussed here, that's as far as I'm going with this.)

In short, I believe it would be dangerous and irresponsible to have any discussions on this forum promoting use of any smokeless in a muzzleloader.

 

[Sam squanch]

Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals

Mine can stop traffic…..

 

[Rifleman1776]

Your understanding is dangerously wrong. It is not a matter of power, but the speed of combustion and resulting pressure spike. Guns made for BP simply cannot handle the stress most smokeless powders induce.

Well said in a nutshell. Don't even try.

 

[Sam squanch]

I hear this discussion every year. DON’T even think about it! Some moron I work with was discussing some “mad max “ end of the world thing , if it happened, he would just use smokeless in his yard sale CVA. And he had experimented with light loads! And it worked GREAT!! I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop on that deal…..

 

[Some_Mook]

I hear this discussion every year. DON’T even think about it! Some moron I work with was discussing some “mad max “ end of the world thing , if it happened, he would just use smokeless in his yard sale CVA. And he had experimented with light loads! And it worked GREAT!! I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop on that deal…..

Tell the moron at work that it is super easy to just make his own black powder. Tell him to watch a couple of You-Tube videos and he will be good to go...

BOOM...

People could really learn something from Darwin. Or maybe it's just other people who learn from watching people who don't / won't / no longer can / learn...

 

[waarp8nt]

Greif so he used modern pistol powder and thought that was ok. It does not state the load but I would assume in the vicinity of 80-100 grains.

I don't have any Clean Shot powder to try, but if he used a muzzleloader powder volume measure, he could easily put in more than 5 times that of a standard pistol load, possibly more.

Curiosity got me, I went out to the shop with my fixed 80 grain volume measure that I use for blackpowder hunting loads in my .54 cal Renegade. I shoot 4 grains of American Select in my 38 spl and 40 S&W as a target load. I was able to get 15, 4 gr powder drops into my 80 grain volume measure. It becomes easy to see why any blackpowder rifle would explode especially if the person was using a larger measure like 100 gr or even 120 gr.

 

[Sam squanch]

Tell the moron at work that it is super easy to just make his own black powder. Tell him to watch a couple of You-Tube videos and he will be good to go...

BOOM...

People could really learn something from Darwin. Or maybe it's just other people who learn from watching people who don't / won't / no longer can / learn...

No, I avoid him religiously. He was shooting coyotes IN TOWN in his backyard…but it was a.22 so it was safe…

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Now from the get-go lets understand I would never use a modern propellant ( ie: For modern cartridge ammunition) in a muzzleloader, I`m a Black Powder Muzzleloader Shooter Period. My understanding is black Powder has about 1/3rd the power of modern propellants.

When we hear to never use modern propellant in a muzzleloader is it due to the load factor, say putting 100 grains of W760 in a Hawken. You would have to be mad if you think that's going to turn out well.
Or does it also include loads that would be considered normal for a modern firearm, say 35-45 grains of W760 in the same Hawken with a patch and ball.

I have no interest in doing it but would just like some insight as to what testing has been done on the subject and is it generally accepted that rule is for cases where an equivalent load of modern propellant has been used instead of Black Powder.

Well you run into two problems off the bat. Since we are speaking hypothetically, I'm going to skip the are-you-crazy-you'll-blow-yourself-up bit.
First, BP needs to be compressed. Uncompressed powder create inconsistent pressure spikes, however, the majority of smokeless powders must not be compressed. Because inconsistent spikes. It would be difficult to ram a projectile without compressing the load.
Second, with smokeless, you're dealing with a vast range of burn rates. BP's rate is the same, It has to be granulated to create a slight range. I really wouldn't want to measure smokeless by volume, and I'd rather not drag more equipment out and then weigh loads under range conditions.
I think that apart from the glaring danger involved, it's just not practical. It's like pushing a rope instead of dragging it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Now from the get-go lets understand I would never use a modern propellant ( ie: For modern cartridge ammunition) in a muzzleloader, I`m a Black Powder Muzzleloader Shooter Period. My understanding is black Powder has about 1/3rd the power of modern propellants.

When we hear to never use modern propellant in a muzzleloader is it due to the load factor, say putting 100 grains of W760 in a Hawken. You would have to be mad if you think that's going to turn out well.
Or does it also include loads that would be considered normal for a modern firearm, say 35-45 grains of W760 in the same Hawken with a patch and ball.

Modern powder is quite different from Black Powder. The only reason why they are discussed is they are both used to propel projectiles. Black powder is very inefficient when measured against modern powder, and thus a small amount of the modern stuff makes a very big difference.

The problem is not only the tensile strength of the breech in the muzzleloader, but also in the manner that the power curve forms. The pressure spike is quick with black powder, while smokeless powder the pressure spike is longer. So the softer metal used in our muzzleloaders are subjected to the pressure for a much shorter period of time, granted a split second, than the longer split second of time for the smokeless powder. Black powder having an accident and goes over-pressure tends to bulge, then split barrels, and the vented pressure drops, while smokeless powder tends to fracture barrels into pieces of shrapnel. It's pretty easy with the naked eye to identify a black powder barrel that has been used with and burst due to modern powder. Metallurgists can explain exactly why the metal behaves as it does, but all I need to know is that it's highly likely to cause a barrel to burst.

That's about all that we need to discuss.

LD