Thick patch/smaller ball or visa versa?

[Skychief]

That doesn't answer my question.
Some people are happy with a group in the 10 ring, some folks are happy hitting a pop can.
Other's want one hole in the X.

Most of those folks that want the one hole thing, tune their rifle combination variables so no other thing changes the rifle and load,, then spend hours on the range tuning the biggest variable,, the shooter.

You can't have the best load for the rifle if you don't want to do any one or any single part of the combination that makes the rifle combination it's mechanical best like saying
"Interested in loads which don't require a sledge hammer to seat."
Ok, I'll give you that's extreme,, but if you want easy loading,, your not going to get the best possible from your rifle.
Will it be accurate,, yes very likley if your not after one hole in the X.
Therefore, what a persons desired and defined "accuracy" is,, is subjective.

I WANT one hole in the X, necchi.

Which load is most likely to shoot this well without having to hammer the ball downbore (not a thrilling necessity to a hunter)? Larger ball/thinner patch or visa versa?

This out of any given rifle under any conditions with its optimum granulation, weight and brand of powder, optimum type and amount of lube on an optimum type of fabric for the patch. Heck, using the optimum brand of cap if the rifle should be a percussion. I don't want to forget the bore. Bore condition set at an optimum for best accuracy also, be it fouled, swabbed, or squeaky clean.

We can't forget the nut behind the barrel. Imagine him doing his part perfectly every shot. Squeezing the trigger with his booger-picker like no one before him. No. Let's say we lock the rifle in a vice or lead sled. No booger-picker variable there then.

I'm beginning to suspect that you don't care much for abstract questions asked here on rainy days. :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

If I may provide more detail pertaining to this very general question, please say so again. :thumbsup:

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Darkhorse]

I've always believed the shooter to be the most important part of the combination. And I've spent over 40 years tuning the shooter.
My go to was always .530 ball with .018 pillow ticking patch. The lube varies depending on what the purpose of the load is.
So before last deer season I decided to find a combo that was easy to start and seat. I ended up hunting with 75 grains of 3fg, .530 round ball and .015 cotton patch. This patch doesn't have the integrity of pillow ticking and as such is real easy to start and just slides down the barrel with no effort. At 50 yards this combo has/will put 3 shots into one hole.
I took an 8 point buck and a doe, both clean pass throughs.
One thing to be aware of with thin patches is the powder charge. At 75 grains there is no burn through. At 80 grains burn through is starting. Above that and the patch may disentegrate.
I've never tried a smaller ball and thicker patch simply because I have quantities on hand of .530 and .395's, so I wanted to find something that suited me with what I had on hand.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks Darkhorse :thumbsup: . How have you been?

Congratulations on the venison. Sounds as though you didn't lose much in the accuracy department going to those thinner patches.

The idea of posing this thread came from a discussion with a friend of mine. He is adamant in thinking nothing will approach the accuracy of a load with a ball of very nearly bore size with a thin patch. I don't subscribe to his thinking.

Your account shows that for you and your rifle at least a thinner patch shoots well with your normally used ball size.

Much appreciated.

Take care, Skychief

 

[hanshi]

:dead: Four inches at 50 yards is more than acceptable to me, as well. What puzzles me is that so far nobody has mentioned that the lead one casts with MUST be blessed by a priest before casting any ball with the lead. Skipping this stage will prevent any possibility of finding the most accurate load. The rest of the advice given is, of course, basic to getting accuracy. :2 :stir:

 

[Skychief]

What if the shooter is a Protestant hanshi? :idunno: :stir: :stir:

 

[tenngun]

Then the blessing can come from someone who has a wife :idunno:

 

[Darkhorse]

Thanks Darkhorse :thumbsup: . How have you been?

Congratulations on the venison. Sounds as though you didn't lose much in the accuracy department going to those thinner patches.

The idea of posing this thread came from a discussion with a friend of mine. He is adamant in thinking nothing will approach the accuracy of a load with a ball of very nearly bore size with a thin patch. I don't subscribe to his thinking.

Your account shows that for you and your rifle at least a thinner patch shoots well with your normally used ball size.

Much appreciated.

Take care, Skychief

I have been better Skychief, each year I seem to get a little worse but that's due to age and injuries. The close range sight is getting worse also but with the simple peeps I made for my rifles I can still shoot as well as ever.
Your friend is probably right if you are shooting much at 100 yards. But It's rare for me to get over a 50 yard shot at a deer so I was only concerned with what I could get at 50 yards.
My normal practice load with the .40 is a .395 round ball and this same .015 patch. I bought a few yards of it years ago to try out.
Shooting 30 grains of 3fg I've shot some really tight groups with it. I have a 25 yard 10 shot group that's a one holer.
At up to 50 yards with lower charge weights the thinner patch gives up nothing to the thicker pillow ticking.
Right now I'm using Canola oil as a lube. After the first shot I just spritz the patch with LeHigh Valley and shoot all I want without cleaning.

 

[Skychief]

:thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

Sounds as though you didn't lose much in the accuracy department going to those thinner patches.

He didin't say that.
Are you somehow trying to equate a properly needed deer hunting accuracy to, how did you say before?

I WANT one hole in the X, necchi.

I'm not gonna dicker with ya while you grab at random analogizes trying to support your quest for a magic load.
It doesn't work that way.
We know you have the papers from Dutch.
Read them. A lot. The answers are all there.

 

[George]

My standard load for my rifles for many years was a ball .005" below land size and a patch thick enough to require a short starter. So, for my .40 caliber that is a .395 ball and a .012" patch. That's still my load for that rifle. This combination would fit into your 'larger ball thinner patch' category, and I've been very well pleased with it for many years. The Kentucky offhand flintlock muzzleloading champion shot 6 with my rifle once upon a time, with me loading, said it shot very well but might be tweaked to do even better if I used a .400" ball. I tried that, and I thought it worked, but was too tight and hard to load for me to have much fun with, so I went back to .395".

I'm a patch heathen, use whatever scrap cloth my sewing wife discards, old cotton bed sheets or pillow slips, etc. I insist on tightly woven natural material, and don't worry about using patches from the same swatch or bolt as so may insist on. Fabric stores get none of my business. Well, I did buy some ticking for the smoothbore once because SWMBO wouldn't let me use the mattress cover.

I do the same with my .30 caliber Wm. Large barrel, a .295" ball and a .006-.008 patch. I shoot that one so little that I have been shooting off the same swatch of gray cotton cloth for several years. I got a .290 mold and tried those with a bit thicker patch and could tell no difference. Accuracy is very good, a 3-shot group at 100 yards of 2 3/8 inches with the .295 ball.

I would say that what we need is a ball+patch combination size which gives a tight enough fit to give a good seal, and it doesn't matter the individual sizes of ball or patch as long as that's true. Sort of a "sealing constant", if you will. :grin:

Spence

 

[Skychief]

[/quote]
I'm not gonna dicker with ya while you grab at random analogizes trying to support your quest for a magic load.
[/quote]

Praise the Lord!!!

Give decaf a thought. :rotf:

 

[Skychief]

Greetings Spence :hatsoff:

Your last paragraph seems to tidy things up. I've seen no real improvement with thinner patching and larger diameter balls versus the opposite. At least in loads that seat without a lot of fuss.

I've always liked that more lube can be used with the thicker patched combinations. Seems to help when shooting long strings.

I've struggled at times with thin patching getting cut upon loading and/or burning during the ride in the bore. Do you happen to know what the name of the gray cotton cloth (.006-.008) is that you've used for years in your 30 caliber? Maybe Mrs. Spence could I.D. it if you're uncertain. :idunno:

I wouldn't ask if necchi hadn't said he wouldn't dicker with me anymore :haha: , but,.....what does SWMBO stand for?

You take it easy on me too. You know how we are North of the river. Talk slow:slap:

Good hearing from you partner, Skychief.

 

[necchi]

She Who Must Be Obeyed.

It's really to bad you can't find Spences Notebook on-line any more
I learned a lot for those notes.

 

[Skychief]

She Who Must Be Obeyed.

Thank you necchi. THAT was on topic, direct, kind and helpful. :hatsoff:

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[Skychief]

Didn't see the latter part of your post until after I replied.

I've read and reread Bob's Blackpowder Notebook many times.

If it's no longer online, I am learning that just now. I've begged Spence to make a hardcopy of his wit and wisdom to no avail.

Would be a crying shame if the Notebook is no longer.

Thanks, Skychief

 

[Skychief]

She Who Must Be Obeyed.

It's really to bad you can't find Spences Notebook on-line any more
I learned a lot for those notes.

Just checked. It's still there. :idunno: :idunno: :idunno:

 

[necchi]

Yeah, read the papers.

 

[George]

SWMBO is from the delightful old English series Rumpole of the Bailey. She tried hard, with little success, to keep Rumpole on the straight and narrow.

The gray cloth is nothing special, just thin, tightly woven cotton fabric which happened to be the right thickness for that gun and ball. I've used several similar types at odd times in that gun, most work well. On reason the cloth has lasted so long is that I'm not a big shooter. When I bought that little gun from our neighborhood black powder shop...lord, I miss that place... I borrowed a .295" Lee mold from the shop and cast 1000 balls over the weekend. I still have almost 700 of them after more than 40 years. A piece of patch big as your thumbnail isn't hard on your stash. :grin:

Spence

 

[longcruise]

I WANT one hole in the X

Me too, and sometimes I get one but usually the other four are off on their own trajectories. :haha:

 

[azmntman]

She Who Must Be Obeyed.

It's really to bad you can't find Spences Notebook on-line any more
I learned a lot for those notes.

I printed it....pdf :grin: