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Shoot A Conical?? Maybe??

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HOGGHEAD

40 Cal.
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I just received my new FL from TVM. And I am pretty happy with it so far. But I have not shot it yet.

I have everything I need to shoot PRB's from the rifle. The barrel is a Rice barrel so I assume it is about a 1in66 twist. But that is a guess. I did not ask Toni what the twist was. I trusted in their judgement.

I would like to shoot a conical in this rifle if I can. I am not against PRB's. I just like conicals. But if the rifle does not like conicals it really is not a big deal. I would be more than happy to just shoot PRB's.

My question to you guys is what do you think would be a good conical to try in this rifle. I do not mind buying a mold or two. And I am fairly proficient at casting. So that is not a big deal.

I am just interested in what some of you guys might think about this. And what conical I should try?? Thanks, Tom.

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Hog, while i dont have any experience with rice barrels, my 50 cal cva hawken with 1-66 twist shoots the 350gr T/C Maxi Hunter just as accurately as prb's. best i can say is grab up a couple and give'em a try. might want to try some wonder wads underneath, see what happens.
 
by the way, that sure is a purty sweet lookin' rifle ya got there :thumbsup: what caliber,etc.?
 
What caliber is it? If It's a standard .54 caliber Rice barrel it has a 1:66 inch twist rate. That's the right rate for patched round balls and is too slow for conicals. A .54 caliber slug is likely overkill and maybe a bit impractical anyway. I'd use only roundballs, the rate of twist is perfect.
 
In that case the twist rate is a bit too slow (in my opinion) for the caliber using a roundball let alone a conical. You could just try it I guess. :confused: Nice rifle!
 
If you must use conicals, also consider the Hornady PA Conical. It's a short .512 conical designed to be used with deeper grooved flintlocks in the PA. deer season.

(By the way, it took all I had to make conical recommendation for a flintlock.) :wink:
 
Rebarrel it or shoot RBs. Any conical that will shoot well in a 66 twist will either be very short or will be a Minie design which in most cases limits the velocity that can be obtained.
ML conicals require at LEAST a 48 twist and 30-36 is better.

Why anyone wants to shoot a conical from a ML I do not know. But many are hung up in ballistic numbers like remained energy which at BP velocities is largely meaningless as a gauge fo killing power.
What is the point of having a flintlock, especially, and shooting conicals? Having shot a considerable number of various animals in Montana over the years with about any type of projectile (except ML conicals) I can tell you that the RB used right works just as well as anything else.
Regardless of the incredible BS that is used to sell new and improved anything in America the SHOT PLACEMENT trumps everything else. Shoot a Mule deer in the lungs with a 50 caliber RB, a 44-90-400 Sharps or a 30-06 and most times it will run 40 yards and fall dead. Shock the spinal column with any of these and it will fall in its tracks. I have knocked down Elk with a 54 round ball at 80 yards though she did get back up she only made about 50 yards and this toward the road :grin:
The DIFFERENCE is that I can shoot the deer in the lungs at 300 yards with the 30-06 but I am limited to about 1/2 that with the RB. The 44-90 stretches the range a little and will kill at 300 if you have a range finder and a sight setting for the weather and range.
If you hunt in a heavily populated area the RB (unless larger than .58) will only travel about 1000 yards regardless of launch angle. The Conical can double this but has no more effective range for hunting and kills no better.

There is no advantage in using a conical if the round ball is sized properly for the game be hunted the RB is at least as good and in most cases superior to the conical. While hard copies are hard to find if you can find it as a document on the WWW read James Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". http://www.archive.org/stream/sportingriflean00forsgoog#page/n17/mode/2up
The book, an 1861 edition, was reprinted by John Baird, The Buckskin Press, in 1978 which I obtained at the time.
While is has some 19th century "science" concerning pressure and such his trajectories and effects on game are an exact parallel to the experiences of today. Though it is at odds with the current "high performance ML" advocates propaganda.

My recommendation is if you want to shoot elongated bullets then get a Sharps that uses brass suppositories . Its far safer than using conicals in a ML and the long term maintenance is less.

Dan
 
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Since you are new to Flintlocks, and, apparently to MLers in general, Do yourself a favor:

1. Forget everything you ever learned about using Ft.Lbs of Energy(FPE) to judge how well a cartridge will kill game;

2. Do your own comparison Penetration testing of rifles. When I got started, I built a "box" made of 1" pine boards, spaced( arbitrarily ) 1" apart, and test fired several guns from the same distance. I used a .22 rimfire rifle; a .30-06 shooting Factory 180 grain HSP bullets; my .50 caliber rifle, shooting .490" dia. RBs, weighing about 180 grains, with first 60 grains of FFFg powder( Dupont,now Goex), and then 100 grains of the same powder;, my .,45-70 shooting a commercial 400 grain JSP bullet; and my friend's .50-140-550 Sharps rifle, shooting a .50 caliber, 550gr. cast bullet, in front of 140 grains of Goex FFFg powder.

The only surprises were from the .22 rimfire, High speed hollow points, which went through 2 boards and lodged into the third- I was not expecting that from a 29 grain bullet; and from my 2 loads with my PRB. Both load, the target, and the "Hunting" load with a PRB penetrated 6 boards( and six air spaces) and hit solidly into the 7th board. But, THE HEAVIER POWDER CHARGE did not cause any greater penetration! :shocked2: :surrender:


MY 180 grain .30 cal. bullet mushroomed correctly and got to the 8th board. My 400 gr. bullet from my .45-70 made it through 10 boards and broke the 11th; the .50 caliber cast bullet went through all 12 boards and buried itself in a railroad tie behind the "box" about an inch, SIDEWAYS, as the bullet yawed, or "Keyholed" the last three boards. Very little damage to that bullet, when we cut it out of the RR tie, BTW. It lost some lead off its NOSE, and its outside diameter, but it still showed grease grooves, and still looked like a bullet.

What did I learn? The Caliber of a RB reflects it possible weight, and weight has more to do with penetration than MV. MY MLer may not have penetrated as far as my .30-06 did, but it penetrated enough to make a Pass-thru shot a reality on any white tail deer I might shoot.

[ In fact, my first deer taken with that rifle was an old doe, shot broadside, at about 35 yds, and the PRB passed right through both lungs, and some of the major arteries coming off the heart, before exiting the other side of her. She was walking down a steep sided ravine, and stumbled on down to the bottom where she died. The Ball left blood trails on both side of her tracks, and she was easily tracked to where she lay.]

Most shooters who come to this sport from shooting modern rifles have all kinds of wrong ideas on how well these guns, shooting Round Balls will kill game. Just remember that a .50 caliber MLer puts a ball INTO the animal that is larger than must modern bullets can expand to when they come out of an animal. My .50 cal. ball expanded to close to .70 cal. in that first deer I shot, by the time it exited her off-side. The damaged to her internal organs was impressive, to say the least.

A modern cartridge kills by sending a bullet so fast through the animal, that a Secondary Wound Channel is formed by the vacuum and "shock wave" formed behind the bullet as it passes through the tissues. However, expanding bullets obviously slow the bullet down considerably, and in so doing, also cause the secondary wound channel to lessen in dimension.

My penetration box showed the primary wound channel for all the guns tested. It could not show secondary wound damage. That was its limitation.

If you use wet clay blocks, or ballistics gel, for your testing, you can show and see the secondary wound channel damage made by hi-speed bullets.

However, few conicals shot from any MLers retain enough velocity very far from the muzzle to form second wound channel damage. The tend to be large caliber "slugs", that do similar damage to that done by a PRB. The difference is they recoil a LOT more than a comparable PRB. Unless you use a Very short Bullet in that 1:66 ROT barrel, you are not going to get much accuracy shooting any conical.

Flintlocks were Not designed to shoot CONICALS. Conicals appeared in the 19th century, when the transition to percussion ignition was well under way. You've spent the money to get a finely made flintlock. Why not learn all you can about its capabilities before you think you know better what its designed to shoot well? :idunno: :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
Have faith in the RB's ability to take game cleanly and effectively, but if you want to use a conical I agree with Trench and his suggestion to try the PA conical. This is a half ball, half conical design nearly the same as the Buffalo Ball-et. I have tried the ball-ets in my 1:48 .54 and found that the accuracy is very good. For the slower twist of your barrel, then try one of the lighter, shorter conicals such as the Lee REAL bullet.
 
I managed to get short LEE REAL conicals to shoot out of my Lyman 50 GPR with its 1:60 twist.... Sort of. I don't recall the weight, but they're somewhere down around 300 grains.

The "sort of" come with some qualifiers. Groups at 50 yards tightened to 3" or so when I got up to 90 grains of 3f or 100 grains of 2f, provided I had a lubed felt bore button under the conical. The bad news is that lighter loads grouped 6-10", and even the heavy load had trouble hitting the target paper out at 100 yards.

That put them off the menu for me, because I was looking to the conical for more long range oomph. The accuracy just wasn't there to deliver the oomph. Inside 100 the 50 cal PRB is a stone killer on deer, and I didn't feel the need for more power there.
 
Im with brown bear on this. My Lyman GPR .50cal will shoot Lee REAL bullets real well out to 75 yards. I use loads identical to what Brown bear mentioned above.Never shot a deer with a load that heavy but first time in the field that REAL bullet on top of of a felt button and 90gr of FFF almost turned a boar inside out at 60 yards. This is the greatest part of muzzleloading. Playing with different loads and bullets. keep at it and have fun ! :thumbsup:

P.S. Fine looking rifle by the way. :grin:
 
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