Performance Question

[Stumpkiller]

Check out the Olympic Miliquet Match shooters. We had a local son (Tom Henly) who could hold 10 shots offhand with no rear sight on a French C200 (200 meter rifle target) at 50 meters and score a "97" pretty consistently. (He used a repro Charleville to win an Olympic gold medal).

A perfect "100" would be a 3-1/4" group (80mm bullseye).

That is good shooting beyond most of us mortals.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Me?
Probably all at 25 yards, none at 50 and somewhere in the next county at 100. :redface:
I am yet to master the 'anchor point' hold for a front sight only smoothie. And, being ill (I have an excuse) for most of the past two years I haven't done much practice.

RM76:

Anchor point refers to how you hold the gun and place your head. Unlike a rifle with a rear sight your head can sorta 'rotate' around a front only sight. Hold different and you will have a different point of impact.

I believe if you can put ten of ten in a 20 " square target at 25 yards then you can put at least five of ten into a 20" target at fifty yards. That one is pure statistics.

'Anchor point' hold? I probably know it using different words but please do explain what it is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

Thank you for your response!

Scipio

 

[smo]

FYI, Tip Curtis once shot a 5-shot one ragged hole group, centered on the X, at 50-yards!

I saw the target in Tips shop in Cross Plains Tn.

It was witnessed by several people. :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I believe if you can put ten of ten in a 20 " square target at 25 yards then you can put at least five of ten into a 20" target at fifty yards. That one is pure statistics.

By the same line of reasoning - if you shoot a foot over a deer with the first shot, and a foot under the deer with the second shot . . . statistically you hit it dead center both times. :v

Ask an offhand pistol shooter to show you their 25 yard and then 50 yard targets. Somehow 1-1/2" becomes 6" . . . even with a rear sight.

 

[George]

By the same line of reasoning - if you shoot a foot over a deer with the first shot, and a foot under the deer with the second shot . . . statistically you hit it dead center both times. :v

Three statisticians went duck hunting. A duck flew by and the first shot at it, but shot 3 feet high. The second fired, but shot 3 feet low. The third exclaimed, "We got it!"

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

I'd heard similar but it was the Marketing Director, the Budget Director and the Chief Financial Officer of a company went on an elk hunt.

Marketing Dir. overshot and was happy.

Budget Dir. undershot and was happy.

CFO saved his shot because statistically they had already killed the elk.

 

[Scipio]

Guys:

OK - let me put it this way.

If you are capable of shooting a 20" X 20" target at 25 yards for ten consecutive shots, every time you go out to practice with your smooth bore flint lock, who here thinks they can not shoot at least five of ten on the same size target at 50 yards?

Remember, confident shooter, good gear, good record of performance at 25.

Scipio

 

[chuck-ia]

Heck, I could even hit a 20 by 20 at 25 yards, they would probably be all over the paper though, some probably almost off the paper, I am guessing I could maybe get 2 or 3 at 50. On the other hand I have seen my buddy shoot clay pigeons at 50 yards off hand with his smooth bore, no rear sight. Depends on the shooter I guess. flinch

 

[Scipio]

Flinch:

Try it. 25 yards is mighty close and a 20 inch square target is also pretty big.

Just don't think it is so easy you don't have to focus on the shots. That is the big killer for guys who blast big targets at close distances.

Scipio

 

[George]

In all this speculating about how well we can shoot at various distances, I don't remember any mention of making sure the gun is capable of doing the job. If you haven't worked up a load which you know for certain can do it, then any estimates of your performance are limited to your appraisal of you own skills. The gun has to be capable of shooting at least as well as you can.

Spence

 

[nhmoose]

not replying to Spence but to OP

If I could not hit a 20x20 inch target with my 62 club butt I would take up tennis.

At 50 I hit a paper plate EVERY time.

Past that who cares I do not shoot that far at stuff unable to be seen where I hunt.

What are you looking for is my question? Get a Smoothbore and practice. I do not take shots I KNOW I can't make.

 

[Scipio]

not replying to Spence but to OP

If I could not hit a 20x20 inch target with my 62 club butt I would take up tennis.

At 50 I hit a paper plate EVERY time.

Past that who cares I do not shoot that far at stuff unable to be seen where I hunt.

What are you looking for is my question? Get a Smoothbore and practice. I do not take shots I KNOW I can't make.

NHM:

My question was for guys who have shot at those distances, standing position, with a flint lock smoothbore that has no rear sight.

It is intended to get performance information for those distances on that size target.

Here is what it isn't intended to do.

1. Get into an argument over statistical probability.

2. Ridicule or criticize guys who don't think they could hold a forty foot connex if they were standing inside of one.

3. Cause a pissing contest between hunters, target shooters, re-enactors, or recreational shooters.

Tennis? Ugh. You don't want to go down that path so keep shooting well!

Scipio

 

[F.G. Ford]

Stumpkiller,
You have grouse in up-state NY!!! :shocked2:
Grouse here in eastern Ontario are as common as a virgin post frosh parties.
VERY RARE!
I have 8000 acres of state land all around the house and grouse are an exception.
Pheasant, yes, woodcock, yes, geese, up to our ying yang, but very few grouse.
Back to the topic!
It is amazing how far you can hit a steel plate 18" square.
It takes practice to allow for drop. Windage is not a problem with a big .58+ ball except on very gusty day.
If you can see where your misses are hitting, you can walk your hits right on to target.
I have shot smooth bore rifle at Friendship, and left humbled, by young and old. Mostly old!
Fred

 

[nhmoose]

not replying to Spence but to OP

If I could not hit a 20x20 inch target with my 62 club butt I would take up tennis.

At 50 I hit a paper plate EVERY time.

Past that who cares I do not shoot that far at stuff unable to be seen where I hunt.

What are you looking for is my question? Get a Smoothbore and practice. I do not take shots I KNOW I can't make.

NHM:

My question was for guys who have shot at those distances, standing position, with a flint lock smoothbore that has no rear sight.

It is intended to get performance information for those distances on that size target.

Here is what it isn't intended to do.

1. Get into an argument over statistical probability.

2. Ridicule or criticize guys who don't think they could hold a forty foot connex if they were standing inside of one.

3. Cause a pissing contest between hunters, target shooters, re-enactors, or recreational shooters.

Tennis? Ugh. You don't want to go down that path so keep shooting well!

Scipio

Sorry if you took it as a pissing contest question, I am not the best writer for sure.
don't take post that seriously this is a fun forum.

What I was trying to say is "mine" works at 50 yards but further not good enough "you" have to try your gun to find out. Anything else won't make a bit of difference as it will be a guess.

Others who have shot my gun do better at 75-100 yards than I can some guys are just scarry good.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Stumpkiller,
You have grouse in up-state NY!!! :shocked2:
Grouse here in eastern Ontario are as common as a virgin post frosh parties.
VERY RARE!

Oh yes. For a dozen years or so I have been a "ruffed grouse cooperator" with the DEC and do annual surveys for numbers seen by date and hour. I have one near the house that roosts in the same tree for the last three years. When it flushes it flies right down my 100 yard shooting range before jinking to either side. That one gets a pass.

I had Mike Brooks make me a seven pound 16 bore (42" swamped bbl) flintlock fowler for grouse hunting. Deer with single ball was secondary. ;-)

Cecil Heacox (wrote the book "The Gallant Grouse") lived just outside Ithaca NY. This is prime ruffed grouse territory.

Some mornings coming to work in the early summer I see the hens with their little broods along the roadside.

I love where I live.

 

[Scipio]

NHM:

Never took your comment to be anything but what you wrote.

You offered results. You said 100% at 50 yards but haven't shot farther.

That is the type of info I am looking for.

I will find out for myself too. That is something I have done my entire shooting career. Info that a larger population can provide is important but can also be dangerous because guys can accept a limit without pushing the envelope.

Right now I am seeing 75 yards as still within the range where I can expect a hit if I make a good shot. I am seeing 100 yards as a distance where a hit will be more chance than skill.

Thank you for your input! Huge respect for the insight of hunters.

Scipio

 

[Stumpkiller]

When I had my Bess I made a lifesize plywood "Redcoat" that I had set up for a 100 yard shot. Smoothbore, not especially tight paper rolled 0.715" ball and I could hit in the torso offhand maybe 50% of the time.

Same gun would do almost one (big) hole at 25 yards, 10" pie plate at 50 yards.

After 60 yards that gun had a decided tendency to throw knuckle balls

 

[Artificer]

Scipio,

This is very difficult for me to answer because though I competed a lot with my Brown Bess Carbine back in the 70’s, I never shot a match with it that had two sighters and ten rounds for record.

Back in those days, we shot Offhand at a double bit axe blade sunk into a large log disc at 20 yards with smoothbores (no rear sights) and the ball had to split on the axe blade and each piece bust a clay pigeon hanging on each side. If you did not bust BOTH clay pigeons, the shot was recorded as a miss. This kind of shot allowed almost no variation side to side, outside the diameter of your ball, as you had to hit the sharp edge of the axe blade. Believe it or not, most good shooters could do it most of the time, IOW 2 out of 3 if not 3 out of 4 times.

We also shot at strings that were staked to the ground and stretched by a branch at an angle. This was done at around 20 to 25 yards, Offhand. Most of us missed most of these shots.

We did shot Offhand at 25 yards in many matches, but normally only two to four shots as we also competed with throwing the knife and tomahawk three times each and sometimes had to start a fire with flint and steel in 10 seconds or less.

We normally did not shoot at 75 yards in competition. One time I shot a match were there was a .22 Cal. Buffalo Steel Silhouette placed on the ground. It was about 4” long and maybe 2 ½ to 3 inches tall. It was an unusual 73 yards offhand shot. I missed it by four inches and was OK with that.

Most of the time we did not compete Offhand at 75 or 100 yards, but when we did, the target was a One Gallon Plastic Milk Jug. We actually shot it much more often, Offhand, at 100 yards than 75 yards. I got to where I could hit it 8 or 9 times out of 10, but we had one shooter who could hit it almost every time. However, this was only one shot, hit or miss and not 10 or more shots fired.

Something one has to consider is the accuracy of the gun VS the accuracy of the shooter at 75 and 100 yards. While the gun may be capable of hitting a 20 inch by 20 inch target at 100 yards every time, the shooter would get fatigued or have eye strain or other things while shooting your proposed 12 rounds at 100 yards. So even the guy I mentioned who hit the Milk Jug almost every time at 100 yards Offhand, would have missed one or more milk jugs when shooting a 12 shot string.

Stumpkiller mentioned the International Muzzle Loading Competition Miquelet Match. That is fired Offhand with a smoothbore with no front sight at 50 Meters. The shooter fires 13 times and the top 10 shots are scored, the bottom or worst 3 shots are ignored. That is the closest thing to a real world example of your questions that I know of.

Gus

 

[Stumpkiller]

First shot is the important one. ;-)

 

[Artificer]

Yeah, buddy!

BTW, thanks for reminding me of Tom Henley. IF he is the same guy I am thinking of on the USIMLT at the World Championships in '96 and '98, he was shooting an original M 1840 Springfield Musket in original flintlock. DARN rare to find them still in flintlock and this one was Exc. to Mint condition.

Gus