MrMarine79
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Well said and thanks for the pic.
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India Made Repros
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paulvallandigham
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There is absolutely NO WAY for a barrel to breech midway down its length without a defect, a purposeful cut(abuse), or an obstruction.
Years ago, when Buckskin Report was still in print, John Baird showed pictures of a " hawken " style rifle that had blown out the bottom of the barrel. Someone had cut the dovetail for the barrel key TOO DEEP, and apparently either actually penetrated the bore, or was within so few thousandths of an inch of the actual bore that the barrel blew out, breaking the forearm of the stock, and sending splinters into the man's arm. There was a big broo-hah about whether this particular manufacturer could be trusted. I do not recall every hearing about another such barrel rupturing quite the same way. I have seen barrels that were victims of hobby builders who cut the dovetails too deep, but were wise enough to stop, and never shoot the barrel after discovering their error.
I have had access to a collection of barrels saved up over a lifetime of work by a gunsmith, who has since passed away, that suffered all kinds of ruptures. Most are shotgun or " smoothbore " barrels. They show ruptures at the chamber, in front of the chamber, half way down the barrel, and at the muzzle.
One is a classic 12 gauge shotgun where a 20 gauge shotgun shell made in down the barrel far enough to allow a 12 gauge to be fired behind it. The barrel is blown out at the side where the 20 gauge shell's base prevented the gases from going forward. You can easily see the stretching of the steel before the barrel ruptured, defining the manner and form of the obstruction.
Damage to the action, or breech of a barrel caused by all that pressure is NOT unusual at all. It would be surprising to see NO damage to the breech. The fact that this barrel shows that the barrel split all the way back to the breechplug, and then opened up to allow a separation at the plug just indicates that whatever the bore obstruction was, it was substantial enough to contain the powder charge gases, and did not move to allow the gases to go out the muzzle. It would be instructive if we had a good picture showing the actual point of the obstruction, from several angle, and the barrel out of the stock.
One can only guess what happened to this gun. I will advise others to be careful where you leave your gun at public events. Always check the barrel of your gun, if its been out of your hands and sight, with your ramrod, to see if there is anything in it that shouldn't be, including a load you forgot to shoot off before you took that break.
My best friend was a Registered Trap Shooter, with a 27 yard handicap. He was in a shoot at some club, and put his shotgun in the gunrack outside the club house, to wait his turn to shoot. He had made a habit of opening his action every time he picked up his gun, and checked the barrel to make sure it was clear. Someone apparently didn't like his competition, because while he was out of sight of his gun, they put a crush pack of cigarette down his barrel, and pushed it in so it was not easily seen when looking at the muzzle. My friend saw his barrel was not clear, used a club house " Stick" to clear the barrel. When he saw what had happened, he asked for a refund of his money, put his gun in the car, and drove away. He could have been seriously hurt, or killed, and, of course, a very expensive shotgun would have been ruined.
A retired police armourer told me that the shotguns held in the police cruiser racks were always coming back with cigar butts, cigarette butts, gum, wrappers, and other trash dumped down them. In his department, the officers were not required to clean the shotguns, and he had to do that. As often as he reported these matters to the shift commander, Nothing really changed. He always wondered what those slobs would do if they ever needed to use that shotgun to save their own or other officer's lives.
Be safe! :hmm: :hatsoff:
Years ago, when Buckskin Report was still in print, John Baird showed pictures of a " hawken " style rifle that had blown out the bottom of the barrel. Someone had cut the dovetail for the barrel key TOO DEEP, and apparently either actually penetrated the bore, or was within so few thousandths of an inch of the actual bore that the barrel blew out, breaking the forearm of the stock, and sending splinters into the man's arm. There was a big broo-hah about whether this particular manufacturer could be trusted. I do not recall every hearing about another such barrel rupturing quite the same way. I have seen barrels that were victims of hobby builders who cut the dovetails too deep, but were wise enough to stop, and never shoot the barrel after discovering their error.
I have had access to a collection of barrels saved up over a lifetime of work by a gunsmith, who has since passed away, that suffered all kinds of ruptures. Most are shotgun or " smoothbore " barrels. They show ruptures at the chamber, in front of the chamber, half way down the barrel, and at the muzzle.
One is a classic 12 gauge shotgun where a 20 gauge shotgun shell made in down the barrel far enough to allow a 12 gauge to be fired behind it. The barrel is blown out at the side where the 20 gauge shell's base prevented the gases from going forward. You can easily see the stretching of the steel before the barrel ruptured, defining the manner and form of the obstruction.
Damage to the action, or breech of a barrel caused by all that pressure is NOT unusual at all. It would be surprising to see NO damage to the breech. The fact that this barrel shows that the barrel split all the way back to the breechplug, and then opened up to allow a separation at the plug just indicates that whatever the bore obstruction was, it was substantial enough to contain the powder charge gases, and did not move to allow the gases to go out the muzzle. It would be instructive if we had a good picture showing the actual point of the obstruction, from several angle, and the barrel out of the stock.
One can only guess what happened to this gun. I will advise others to be careful where you leave your gun at public events. Always check the barrel of your gun, if its been out of your hands and sight, with your ramrod, to see if there is anything in it that shouldn't be, including a load you forgot to shoot off before you took that break.
My best friend was a Registered Trap Shooter, with a 27 yard handicap. He was in a shoot at some club, and put his shotgun in the gunrack outside the club house, to wait his turn to shoot. He had made a habit of opening his action every time he picked up his gun, and checked the barrel to make sure it was clear. Someone apparently didn't like his competition, because while he was out of sight of his gun, they put a crush pack of cigarette down his barrel, and pushed it in so it was not easily seen when looking at the muzzle. My friend saw his barrel was not clear, used a club house " Stick" to clear the barrel. When he saw what had happened, he asked for a refund of his money, put his gun in the car, and drove away. He could have been seriously hurt, or killed, and, of course, a very expensive shotgun would have been ruined.
A retired police armourer told me that the shotguns held in the police cruiser racks were always coming back with cigar butts, cigarette butts, gum, wrappers, and other trash dumped down them. In his department, the officers were not required to clean the shotguns, and he had to do that. As often as he reported these matters to the shift commander, Nothing really changed. He always wondered what those slobs would do if they ever needed to use that shotgun to save their own or other officer's lives.
Be safe! :hmm: :hatsoff:
Cpl.Parker
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Who am I to come between you and....
Looks a lot like what I would expect to see from a weld failure in a piece of DOM tubing.
Just my guess.
Just my guess.
I saw a 13/16" 45 cal Douglas barrel back about 1969 that blew on the first shot. It split down the top flat for about 10" from about the breech forward. Very jagged tear like split. No damage to the stock or shooter I was told. Probably was not proved.
Barrels burst from an obstruction usually show some bulging or stretching at the obstruction. They either simply bulge or they bulge to the point of bursting at the obstruction. This looks more like the Douglas above except its a much straighter line.
Its just not possible to make pronouncements without a detailed examination to determine what caused this type of failure.
Having someone "look at" the gun or the photo is not definitive. Unless its sent to a lab and REALLY looked at in depth form flaws and to test the alloy coming to a conclusion is mostly guess work. But this is not the classic appearance of a burst barrel that has no flaws. This is about all that can be said.
Really we are all making assumptions.
The fact that it burst with blanks is what worries me. Barrels of this bore operate at relatively low pressure even with a ball in front of the powder. A blank makes very little pressure unless wadded heavily and well packed.
If the bore was somehow partially plugged there would be little obstruction if it could still be loaded and fired.
It really needs to go to a good lab with someone versed in firearms failures for a proper examination to see how the tube was formed and what the alloy is and the barrel's hardness at various points.
The only thing I can say with any certainty is that everyone near this thing when it failed were very lucky.
Dan
Barrels burst from an obstruction usually show some bulging or stretching at the obstruction. They either simply bulge or they bulge to the point of bursting at the obstruction. This looks more like the Douglas above except its a much straighter line.
Its just not possible to make pronouncements without a detailed examination to determine what caused this type of failure.
Having someone "look at" the gun or the photo is not definitive. Unless its sent to a lab and REALLY looked at in depth form flaws and to test the alloy coming to a conclusion is mostly guess work. But this is not the classic appearance of a burst barrel that has no flaws. This is about all that can be said.
Really we are all making assumptions.
The fact that it burst with blanks is what worries me. Barrels of this bore operate at relatively low pressure even with a ball in front of the powder. A blank makes very little pressure unless wadded heavily and well packed.
If the bore was somehow partially plugged there would be little obstruction if it could still be loaded and fired.
It really needs to go to a good lab with someone versed in firearms failures for a proper examination to see how the tube was formed and what the alloy is and the barrel's hardness at various points.
The only thing I can say with any certainty is that everyone near this thing when it failed were very lucky.
Dan
Mike Brooks
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I remember when this Indian made gun first blew. There was a written description of the incident. This was at a reenactment and they were volley firing. This happened after just around ten blank charges. I don't recall how many grains they were shooting but I don't recall it was a heavy charge. They were using paper cartridges.
It looks like a split along a seam to me as well.
Here's a little info for Dan P about blowing Douglas barrels. I blew a 1" X 50 back in the 80's It was a flint gun with a 38" barrel I loaded it then apparently loaded it again but only short started the last ball. I was talking and not paying attention. When it was my turn to shoot I stepped up to the line and shot. The barrel blew into three pieces. It blew at the breech, the breech plug was of the Tennessee "lollipop" style and had two tang bolts bolted into the trigger plate, luckily those tang bolts held, otherwise I wouldn't be here. 18" of the top flat were never found and the gun was sheared at the wrist and in two pieces. I escaped with only a singed eye brow.
The short started ball was still in the barrel and there was no bulging in that area.
This incident made me a strong believer in 12L14 for barrel steel. It will split, but not shatter like a hard barrel will.
It looks like a split along a seam to me as well.
Here's a little info for Dan P about blowing Douglas barrels. I blew a 1" X 50 back in the 80's It was a flint gun with a 38" barrel I loaded it then apparently loaded it again but only short started the last ball. I was talking and not paying attention. When it was my turn to shoot I stepped up to the line and shot. The barrel blew into three pieces. It blew at the breech, the breech plug was of the Tennessee "lollipop" style and had two tang bolts bolted into the trigger plate, luckily those tang bolts held, otherwise I wouldn't be here. 18" of the top flat were never found and the gun was sheared at the wrist and in two pieces. I escaped with only a singed eye brow.
The short started ball was still in the barrel and there was no bulging in that area.
This incident made me a strong believer in 12L14 for barrel steel. It will split, but not shatter like a hard barrel will.
Hi Mike and all,
Here's a little perspective on reenactments and the use of blank charges for those who are not familiar with it:
Typically, blank charges are 100 gr. of 2fg or coarser black powder rolled in paper cartridges. From that charge, they first prime the pan (historically correct but not recommended for any live firing unless someone really is shooting at you), then dump the rest of the charge down the barrel. The empty paper cartridge is tossed to the ground at this point. The paper is not wadded up and put down the barrel. In fact, the ramrods are forbidden to be removed from the pipes during a reenactment.
The BAR (Brigade of the American Revolution), and Continental Line (Umbrella groups that organize events and make insurance coverage available to members) limit this cartridge to a maximum of 110 grs. The British Brigade limits it to 100 grs. With this uncompressed charge the discharge is sometimes more of a whoosh than a bang with the 75 cal. Bess. With a 50 cal. rifle it makes a much louder report. The pressures are very low when loaded accordingly.
As part of the safety inspection of arms prior to a battle reenactment, participants are required to "spring rammers" while an officer or NCO observes each individual. Basically you put the rammer down the barrel with about 8-12" of the ramrod extending above the muzzle and bounce the rammer off the breech. If it bounces up, it's clear. If there is anything in the barrel, it doesn't bounce up and must be cleared and re-inspected. Reenactment units are meticulously consistent and methodical in these safety inspections.
It is not unusual to fire 20 to 30 cartridges during a battle reenactment. There are usually 2 battle reenactments per event and often an additional tactical engagement. Multiply that by the number of participants and the number of events throughout the country and the fact that there have only been two failures (Pedersoli in 1996, and this one in 2007) and that's a pretty good safety record. Nonetheless, you don't want to be the "one" that is the exception.
If you zoom in a bit on the picture posted showing the split, it looks to me like there is a ring bulge right above the start of the split. If there was an obstruction in the barrel, since it is forbidden to use rammers on the field, it would make sense that it would be only part way down and would bulge at this point prior to failure.
Hope this helps,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Here's a little perspective on reenactments and the use of blank charges for those who are not familiar with it:
Typically, blank charges are 100 gr. of 2fg or coarser black powder rolled in paper cartridges. From that charge, they first prime the pan (historically correct but not recommended for any live firing unless someone really is shooting at you), then dump the rest of the charge down the barrel. The empty paper cartridge is tossed to the ground at this point. The paper is not wadded up and put down the barrel. In fact, the ramrods are forbidden to be removed from the pipes during a reenactment.
The BAR (Brigade of the American Revolution), and Continental Line (Umbrella groups that organize events and make insurance coverage available to members) limit this cartridge to a maximum of 110 grs. The British Brigade limits it to 100 grs. With this uncompressed charge the discharge is sometimes more of a whoosh than a bang with the 75 cal. Bess. With a 50 cal. rifle it makes a much louder report. The pressures are very low when loaded accordingly.
As part of the safety inspection of arms prior to a battle reenactment, participants are required to "spring rammers" while an officer or NCO observes each individual. Basically you put the rammer down the barrel with about 8-12" of the ramrod extending above the muzzle and bounce the rammer off the breech. If it bounces up, it's clear. If there is anything in the barrel, it doesn't bounce up and must be cleared and re-inspected. Reenactment units are meticulously consistent and methodical in these safety inspections.
It is not unusual to fire 20 to 30 cartridges during a battle reenactment. There are usually 2 battle reenactments per event and often an additional tactical engagement. Multiply that by the number of participants and the number of events throughout the country and the fact that there have only been two failures (Pedersoli in 1996, and this one in 2007) and that's a pretty good safety record. Nonetheless, you don't want to be the "one" that is the exception.
If you zoom in a bit on the picture posted showing the split, it looks to me like there is a ring bulge right above the start of the split. If there was an obstruction in the barrel, since it is forbidden to use rammers on the field, it would make sense that it would be only part way down and would bulge at this point prior to failure.
Hope this helps,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
huntman58
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Good to see this as it shows any one can get distracted and make a boo boo. Glad it was not any worse and your still here. This has always been my worry and why the old guy that taught me about muzzle loading said this “no matter what do not look away or talk to any one when loading. finish what your doing then set the gun down pointed down rang and say just a moment please tell I shoot then ask all you want this is for safety” I have never forgotten that and things like this bring it back to mind again . Thanks for sharing Mike.Mike Brooks said:
I remember reading contemporary accounts of the inaccuracy of the Brown Bess, because it was so poorly made. I don't have the money to buy a custom gun, nor the ability to buy one. Rather than not shoot, I buy things like T/C rifles. It's hard to believe they are dangerous junk. I like to drive fast, but can't afford a Ferarri. Should I walk until I save enough money to buy the Italian streak? I suppose I'd be happier shooting a $5000 custom built firearm, but until I hit the lottery.....Are the Indian guns safe? Only one blowup is reported. I know of at least two Winchesters that blew up. As for the story that the Corvair was unsafe at any speed, I used to race sports cars and think the Corvair was one of the best handling of the American cars. just my two cents. graybeard
Russ T Frizzen
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The original Besses' inaccuracy was due to being loaded with a very undersized ball and no patch. Using a better ball/patch combination would have improved things no end. The old Besses' quality was certainly no worse than any other issue musket of the period and better than many. I don't recall anyone calling T/Cs "dangerous junk", but you don't need to spend $5000.00 to get a custom gun. Some very fine ones are available for substantially less--especially if you look for a used one.
Nader is a jerk no doubt about it. But the first generation Corvair with the swing axle suspension was an interesting handler at the apex of many corners if the tire pressures were off. The second gen car was very sweet.
I take it that the Winchesters that blew up were inlines? Seems like they were made in Spain or Italy though.
It occurs to me that absolutely none of this has anything to do with the astonishingly well made, period correct, feather light, exquisitely balanced and shoot-10-shots-into-the-same-hole-at-a-thousand-yards accurate India made Besses. Provided of course they don't blast the breech plug up your nose instead. Oh, well it's very late.... :surrender:
Nader is a jerk no doubt about it. But the first generation Corvair with the swing axle suspension was an interesting handler at the apex of many corners if the tire pressures were off. The second gen car was very sweet.
I take it that the Winchesters that blew up were inlines? Seems like they were made in Spain or Italy though.
It occurs to me that absolutely none of this has anything to do with the astonishingly well made, period correct, feather light, exquisitely balanced and shoot-10-shots-into-the-same-hole-at-a-thousand-yards accurate India made Besses. Provided of course they don't blast the breech plug up your nose instead. Oh, well it's very late.... :surrender:
Mike Brooks said:
12L14 will produce brittle fractures as well.
In firearms this has little to do with how hard the barrel is, it has to do with the characteristics of a given alloy and how fast the pressure rise is. In limited tests 1137, for example, will only split if over pressured. If it is subjected to a pressure rise that is fast enough, such as an "event" in a breechloader when a powder such as 3031 is loaded with too much airspace (too little powder for the case capacity) it will fragment the chamber area with very little stretching. A massive OVERLOAD of faster IMR 4198 will simply split the barrel and then only with the barrel restricted in diameter just ahead of the bullet.
Back in the 70s when a lot of this "blown up ML" discussion was going on metallurgists pointed out the when subjected to internal pressure 12L14 was likely to fail in a brittle fracture. It is a characteristic of the alloy, or so I was informed at the time.
Back the Indian Musket.
Having a barrel split as the indian made musket did has to put a chill into anyone who has tried to blow a barrel with BP. It is very difficult especially with a vented barrel like a flintlock. Having it split with a blank, supposedly partially blocked (which I think is simply silly) or not, is scary. Something has to be seriously wrong.
To convince me a partial block in the barrel would do this I would need to see it recreated.
Dan
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