Hydrogen Peroxide bore cleaning

[Grenadier1758]

There are a number of threads that reference the use of the MAP cleaner. This is equal parts of Murphy's Oil soap, rubbing alcohol and hydrogen peroxide. this is a very aggressive cleaner that really foams up and seems to remove fouling very effectively. Unfortunantly, the hydrogen peroxide has extra oxygen that releases on cleaning and can react with the steel in the barrel. Yeah, that means rust, in a hurry, if it is not rinsed really well with water and oiled with a good rust inhibiting oil. Replacing the H2O2 with water is equally effective in removing fouling and the soap can remove the oils used as lubricant.

Black powder fouling and the fouling of most substitutes will be dissolved by water only. A few drops of a dish washing soap will take care of oils such as bore butter, mink oil, olive oil or whatever oil is used and baked onto the surface of the bore during firing.

So, cleaning your muzzleloader doesn't require exotic solvents to clean the gun. Water and a few drops of soap suffice. Or maybe WD-40 followed by some dry patches and rust inhibiting oil such as Birchwood Casey's Barricade. You gain nothing from using the baking powder unless you need the mild abrasive to clean burned in lubricant.

 

[tenngun]

:haha:

 

[fleener]

I must of been doing something wrong, the MAP cleaner I used for 25 years never foamed.

I quit using peroxide in any mixture because it has run out of my barrel and caused damage to my stock finish. Leaves a cloudy white streak where it ran.


Fleener

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer - could promote rusting.

Baking soda is a base - could promote rusting.

Yep, H2O2 is acidic on the pH scale, while baking soda is an alkali on the scale..., so..., what you're doing is neutralizing both when mixed, and you will get a salt and water, so you're cleaning with slightly salty water. :shocked2:

Windex has a pH of 10.7, and is mostly water, so you clean as with water, and the alkali properties counteract the acidity of the black powder fouling. Baking Soda, a base, when mixed with water would work pretty much in the same way in a very weak solution, so you should be using Baking Soda and water, not mixed with peroxide.

Of course those of us who just use plain tap water, are diluting the acidity of the fouling, and then it's removed. Most folks don't shoot a half-pound of powder in a day, let alone a full pound in a weekend, especially on a regular basis. Most of us reenactment types, however, do shoot that much, and water or generic Windex have been the go-to stuff to my knowledge and experience for 40 years.

LD

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yep, H2O2 is acidic on the pH scale,

Let's discuss that Dave...
First we should make the distinction between pure and industrial grade concentrations of H202 and over the counter 3% solution.


The PH of a H202 solution is not linear with dilution.

% H2O2 Conc.-----pH @ 25-deg C

0-----------------7.0

10----------------5.3

20----------------4.9

30----------------4.7

40----------------4.6

50----------------4.5

60----------------4.5

70----------------4.5

80----------------4.6

90----------------4.9

100---------------6.2


I decided to experiment..
I tested my tap water, some 3% h202 solution and then I mixed them 50/50
The resulting PH was....

3% H202 had a PH of 5.2

My well water had a PH of 8.2

50/50 Mix of the two resulted in a PH of 7.0

Interesting.. :hmm:

Now there is one more important thing to say....
Some think using peroxide in their concoctions is bad because of the extra oxygen molecules...Well, let's realize that water (all water even distilled) has dissolved oxygen in it. Your ordinary tap water with an aerator on the end of the faucet adds oxygen to the water..

 

[Bo T]

"Many, including myself notice that Hydrogen Peroxide is nothing more than pure water with an extra oxygen atom attached to it."

This is, simply, not true. H-O-H vs H-O-O-H. Pure hydrogen peroxide does not have any water molecules in it.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I wonder if there are any dangers in using Hydrogen Peroxide and baking soda mix

By "hydrogen peroxide" I assume you are referring to a 3% usp solution.

What you have concocted is a weak and substitute home version of sodium percarbonate AKA Oxi-clean

Using a diluted amount of oxy-clean would be much more effective for cleaning (and cheaper), since it contains 10 times more oxygen....

Although, I would be extremely hesitant to use it on my gun....But, it would work great for getting my black powder stained white shirt clean... :grin:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I use H202 in my ml rifles. Especially in the TCs which have breeches designed to collect corroding crud. There is an old thread here somewhere on this issue. I was criticized for using H202 because it is an oxidant. However, the diluted stuff you buy from a pharmacy is no where near the strength of industrial hp. Do rinse your barrel well after use. I posted some pics of an experiment leaving an old hunk of barrel in a jar of hp for an extended period of time. No effect at all.

 

[Archer 756]

:hmm: How does one have a barrel rust if you are supposed to "OIL" after cleaning

 

[curator]

When I was tasked with the cleaning of 20+ smooth bore muskets that were used in living history programs at the museum where I worked, nothing worked better to get the caked-on fouling out of the barrels than 3% peroxide. Many of them having been fired 100+ times over the weekend were so fouled that I could not get a cleaning rod down the bore. I would plug the touch hole or nipple then pour a half cup of peroxide down the bore, After a few minutes I would plug the muzzle with my thumb and invert the gun several times to distribute the liquid. The barrel would get very warm. After about 5 minutes I would pour out the crud and repeat once more. One pint of peroxide would "clean" two muskets. A double rinse with clean tap water, dry the bore with a couple of cotton/muslin patches then a coating of Ballistol completed the process. A bore scope revealed bare and clean breech plug faces and bores. Faster and cleaner results than using soap and water alone. I never get my personal guns this dirty and severely fouled so soap and water works fine.

 

[Patocazador]

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer - could promote rusting.

Baking soda is a base - could promote rusting.

Baking soda is a very weak base which acts as a buffering agent that neutralizes acids. It is so weak a base that it barely qualifies as one.

 

[Captjoel]

I played with the MAP concoction for a while when I was first starting out. I used it on a fine original jaeger rifle and noticed how it took the 200 year old finish off of the wood when it leaked out of the touch hole (around my tooth pick plug).

I then asked a professional barrel maker for his opinion on the use of hydrogen peroxide.

The late Don Getz of the Getz Barrel Company told me to NEVER EVER use that stuff!! He had seen much damage where barrels were ruined with tiny pits that did not show up with a standard bore light. These were on some high dollar rifles as well mind you and he actually made money doing barrel replacements!

Don was a true friend and I highly respected his experienced opinion. Also miss him as well.

 

[Rifleman1776]

:hmm: How does one have a barrel rust if you are supposed to "OIL" after cleaning

The TC breech area can accumulate crud that often does not come out with regular cleaning. BTW, on the TCs I put breech into a bucket of soapy water and pump up and down for cleaning. The use of HP is a (paranoid?) extra measure to get hidden crud out of that area. And then, of course, I oil it all.

 

[tenngun]

"Many, including myself notice that Hydrogen Peroxide is nothing more than pure water with an extra oxygen atom attached to it."

This is, simply, not true. H-O-H vs H-O-O-H. Pure hydrogen peroxide does not have any water molecules in it.

Chemist joke: two chemist walk in to a bar, one says I want an H2O the other says I want an H2O too, but the bartender miss hears it so... the first drinks his and he second drinks his and dies.

 

[Black Hand]

Some think using peroxide in their concoctions is bad because of the extra oxygen molecules...Well, let's realize that water (all water even distilled) has dissolved oxygen in it. Your ordinary tap water with an aerator on the end of the faucet adds oxygen to the water..

The faucet aerator adds O2 to the water. When Hydrogen peroxide reacts, it release H2O and a singlet Oxygen, which is exceptionally reactive and a potent oxidizer. They are VERY different forms of oxygen...

 

[coloradoclyde]

So, some folks use hydrogen peroxide in their concoctions and some don't....Some report good result using hydrogen peroxide, some don't.

I can't help but wonder what the differences are....It's obviously not the hydrogen peroxide.

I've used M.A.P with peroxide or plain water, the results are essentially identical. If eliminating the extra oxygen molecule doesn't change my results, why does it change for others?

 

[Zonie]

"Many, including myself notice that Hydrogen Peroxide is nothing more than pure water with an extra oxygen atom attached to it."

This is, simply, not true. H-O-H vs H-O-O-H. Pure hydrogen peroxide does not have any water molecules in it.

We aren't talking about pure hydrogen peroxide which was often used as the oxidizer in rocket engines.
We are talking about the greatly diluted stuff available at the local market.

As 3% Hydrogen Peroxide is about 97% distilled water, I'll stick to my original statement. :grin:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've seen 80% Hydrogen Peroxide in use and it is treated like you would weapons grade Plutonium.

The 3% drugstore variety is 97% water. As it is exposed to sunlight and air it quickly dissipates to the more stable water molecules and the oxygen ions find each other (forming O2) if they can't find some accommodating iron to hook up with (Fe2O3 . . . rust). Look up Fenton's Reagent for you chemist types.

As soap and water work just as well, why risk it?

 

[George]

To nobody in particular:

Reading these perpetual discussions of cleaning BP guns always makes me feel good, just to know that the spirit of alchemy is alive and well after all these centuries. :wink:

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

Happily no one has mentioned using "Jimmy Riddle" so far.






D'oh!