Brown Bess Carbine...

[chuckpa]

Mike
I think that sea service carbine is so cool as you say that I might just make one up.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I am done.

.
Thank God! :applause:

(but I don't believe it. :haha: )
[/quote]
Boy, Mike, were you ever right!!! :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Paul, you can't have "culture" without "people".

Ah! But you certainly can have people without culture! :grin:

Amen, brother. Wish I'd said that!!!
:thumbsup:

 

[tmdreb]

Paul,

If you'd like to disagree with Mike's conclusions regarding British carbines, I would suggest citing some source on the subject rather than just reciting a bunch of unrelated anecdotal stories.

I'm not sure when you studied history, but when I was majoring in the subject, we learned that trying to make an argument such as this one without a decent list of primary and secondary sources to back it up is pointless. You're just asking to be disregarded.

You seem like a nice guy and I'm sure you're a fine lawyer, but I don't even know what point you're arguing anymore.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Been reading this and err, I think some of us need to light a pipe and go for a walk :thumbsup:

Britsmoothy.

 

[Dane]

Well, it's nice to see the boys are at it again.

Please don't stop guys, this is a very important part of my day. :rotf:

 

[bingo1952]

I love a good pissing contest. :rotf: They are almost as much fun as a good cat fight.
:yakyak: :thumbsup: :yakyak: :bow:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Actually, there's a lot to be learned from all this. As long as the dialog doesn't get too personal, I think it's very informative to have people (who know much more than I do) discuss the two sides of an issue.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Actually, there's a lot to be learned from all this. As long as the dialog doesn't get too personal, I think it's very informative to have people (who know much more than I do) discuss the two sides of an issue.

Thank you! I'd hate to think that after I spent more than several hours on a thread that there are those out there that think this was nothing more than a sparring match. I encourage all who are interested, to find the books I listed and educate your self on the Brown Bess and guns for the North American Indian trade. I find the subjects fascinating.

 

[gizamo]

Mike,

Have to admit that I am now in the market for a proper Brown Bess, to go with my fantasy gun :wink:

There must be something about these guns to inspire so much passionate debate. I truly intended to use mine hunting this fall, and feel that it is right for my intended purpose ~ out in the Maine puckerbrush. The reason for the OP was that the gun made sense to me as a shortened version of the Brown Bess. I just wasn't sold on the "Trade" gun history.

It has been a most informative thread, and one full of history, documentation, and suggestion...

Sometimes when passions are stirred, the information flows a bit more freely...I know I learned a good deal...

Usually happens when I am not doing much of the talking... :v

Thanks to everyone that participated...

giz

 

[bingo1952]

Oh I agree completely with your viewpoint but this came very close to getting "personal" several times. You could feel the tension without even being there in person.

 

[Tinker2]

Sure sounded like a spitting match to me, one side
anyway.

Tinker2

 

[Claude Mathis]

Oh I agree completely with your viewpoint but this came very close to getting "personal" several times. You could feel the tension without even being there in person.

I agree. It even did get a little personal, but that's to be expected when people are passionate about something. When my daughter was very small, she sometimes thought my wife and I were "fighting" when having a discussion about something. We could be debating how deep to plant a tree, but my daughter would say, "stop fighting". Kids do that when they don't understand the subject matter and all they hear is the "tone".

What's fascinating is, both sides can sometimes be mostly correct and still disagree in general. It's only when you listen to both sides and do some investigating yourself that you learn what's true. "True" for that point in time, until some new evidence comes to light.

 

[lockjaw]

...i like a good debate when it is fought on the facts...facts are facts,...opinions are like...well,you know...everybody has one... :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike
I think that sea service carbine is so cool as you say that I might just make one up.

Now, wouldn't that be cool? :thumbsup: I just re read this entire thread....(what a job! :haha: ) One thing it left me with is the desire to see these british guns up close and personal. It would be great fun to get into somebody's private collection of 18th century British small arms for a day or two. It would also be great to order (and receive) all the British military parts kits from The Rifle Shoppe and put them together. Certainly would make a nice contemporary collection.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Good Lord! This is nearly unbelievable! :shake: You have to be one of the windiest people I've ever run across. :haha: One thing has always been obvious with you Paul, the less you know about something the more you tend to write to cover up the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about. Probably has something to do with your profession.
Read the following books then we'll be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subjects. Your reliance on what you learned in collage 40 years ago just isn't current enough, in fact it's mostly folklore.
These will cover alot of info on the Brown Bess and the carbines.
"PATTERN DATES FOR BRITISH ORDINANCE SMALL ARMS 1718-1783" by Dewitt Bailey

"MUSKETS OF THE REVOLUTION AND THE FRENCH AND INDIAN WARS" BY Bill Ahearn
This one is especially interesting with many fist hand references as to what arms the Indians preferred.
"BRITISH MILITARY FLINTLOCK RIFLES 1740-1840"
Dewitt Bailey again.
And these by TM Hamilton on Indian trade guns:
"EARLY INDIAN TRADE GUNS 1625-1775
"FIREARMS ON THE FRONTIER: GUNS AT FORT MICHILIMACKINAC 1715-1781
"COLONIAL FRONTIER GUNS"
More on Indian trade guns:
"THE NORTHWEST GUN" by C.E. Hanson
"TRADE GUNS OF THE HUDSON'R BAY COMPANY 1670-1970" by S.J. Gooding
"THE FUSIL DE TULLE IN NEW FRANCE 1691-1741" by R. Bouchard
"SUCCESS IN THE NORTH AMERICAN FUR TRADE" by B.Conner
"PROCEEDINGS OF THE 1984 TRADE GUN CONFERENCE" Vol I & II
That ought to be enough to give you some basic knowledge on the subjects.

I am going to add one more book to Mike's excellent list:

American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol. 1: Colonial and Revolutionary War Arms by George D. Moller. University Press of Colorado (December 1993)

Coupled with Mike's list, this book can answer a lot of the questions asked here in this thread. Though out of print and only rarely showing up used (and VERY expensive) it may be available through inter library loan. Well worth the trouble.

 

[Britsmoothy]

When our dumb country gets around to letting us buy some BP without going through a dumb licencing regime I'm certainly gonner get one!

Britsmoothy.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

...i like a good debate when it is fought on the facts...facts are facts,...opinions are like...well,you know...everybody has one... :haha: :haha: :haha:

A bellybutton?

 

[lockjaw]

...i like a good debate when it is fought on the facts...facts are facts,...opinions are like...well,you know...everybody has one... :haha: :haha: :haha:

A bellybutton?

...i guess that would include "navel arms" :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Well I have my raincoat on so I am going to imput something I read this week. I just finished up
A History of the Campaigns of 1780 and 1781 in the Southern Provinces of North America.
By Lieut. Col. Banastre Tarleton
It took me 15 Zantac 150s and half a bottle of Pepto to get through it but at the end of the book there was an inventory of British items captured after the fall of Yorktown. Here are the one that I liked.

Muskets with bayonets: 5743
" " " without bayonets: 915
Damaged Muskets: 1136
Carbines: 31
Fuzees: 32
Brass Blunderbusses: 11
Musket cartridges with ball: 266.274
Full barrels of powder: 83
Half barrels of powder 89
Musket balls: 29 boxes, 100 lbs each
Musket flints: 34.200

A few questions pop up with this, about the carbines and fuzees.
I assume the Fuzees are what we now call the Officers Fusil ( a damn dood looking smoothbore! )
but what are the carbines?

By 1780 there were over 1000 model 1776 Tower Rifles over here. Could they be talking about the King's rifles or sawed off besses?

My last question, I wonder if they got any of them
musket balls, flints and powder available :bow:
Anybody got George Washington's E Mail address?
Inquiring minds want to know!

:thumbsup: