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Brown Bess Carbine...

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Just who would these guns " Stick out to", west of the Appalachians
Who said anything about west of the Appalachians?
And aren't you speculating on how the Indians felt about the guns?
No. Information on what guns Indians prefered is well documented. I could list at least 1/2 dozen books for reference.
Its nice of you to come to the defense of J.D., but I was Not Attacking him. He posed a proposition that I believe was, and is full of holes based on other known histories, and even recent history. For instance, the two full-auto AK47s used back in 1999 in the Hollywood Bank Robbery, insescently shown on TV, were " taken " from a warehouse in Panama, and smuggled into the USA. You won't hear that truth on TV, but it is the truth. I also was told that the warehouse was being controlled by U.S. armed forces, and not Panamanian forces. At the time, the MSM was in a dither to " Prove " that the source of the guns came from somewhere in the USA, to support further gun bans. When the investigation by L.A. Police, and the FBI learned the truth, NO mention was ever made on TV by any of the anti-gunners. The facts didn't fit their agenda.
:confused: Completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. :slap:
And we know that part of the spoils of war, dating back to Biblical accounts, was to recover the arms and armor from the fallen enemy soldiers.
A very romantic idea.....but you just don't see alot of evidence concerning supply of British caliber musket balls in French inventory lists for all these supposedly captured bess's. Nor for inventory lists for Indians for that matter. Again, purely romantic speculation on your part.
Some Indians might not have liked the heavy Brown Bess guns, but any musket was bettern than NO musket.

And, they could always shorten those barrels to lighten the guns.
The archaeological evidence just doesn't support either of these romantic suppositions. Both the French and the British made sure their Indian allies were well supplied with the type of arms the Indians preferred in times of war. If you would have stuck a 12lbs Bess in a Indians hand he would have tossed it in the dirt and went home.
As far as I'm aware there is no evidence of Brown Bess muskets in any numbers in archaeological digs in Indian villages, either full length or shortened.
Romantic speculation on the subject is wonderful, but those damned archaeological facts will spoil that speculation every time.
 
First your story is none. Now its " not in sufficient numbers. " You are weaseling, a common debating tactic. Oh, and supposedly its not west of the Appalachians, as if the Indians had to pay a toll, or register, to go over the crest! We have seen guns show up all over the Eastern United States and Canada, and they may have traveled back and forth.

Sorry, Guns don't check in with historians, before they are moved. They are tools. People use them, just like we do today.

The first thing I was taught about History, in College, is that what we read about can only be a close proximation of what happened, because most history is written a generation later, when the people involved in events are often no longer on hand to tell their stories. We do supplement history with Archeology, but again, that only gives a part of the picture. New evidence found in all kinds of places unknown by historians, changes what they have written, and it happens all the time. The oldest such discovery now known is the finding of a huge archeological site in the Western Egyptian Desert, that indicates a 4th pyramid, and gives information that changes our understanding of the Great Pyramids.

The Dead Sea scrolls are another example of new information found 2,000 years after the Bible was written, that modifies what we thought we knew.

When I was in college, NO ONE could read the hyrogliphics in the Mayan, and INCAN tombs. Today they can. It has completely changed what we knew back 30 years ago about these civilizations and how they dealt with their environment.

You seem to grab onto books, and legers as if they were the Ten Commandments, written by God. MY fellow classmates and I were dispelled of such grand ideas before I completed my first history course.

Please don't let your own experience, knowledge, and practice be set aside for what someone writes in a book, be it history, or archeology. If you knew some of the GOOFs who are now " noted " historians, that I have met, you would not be so married to the idea that any book can give you " Historically Correct " anything. History is constantly being re-written as more artifacts are found, in more places. Many of the histories I have read when in college 35 years ago have been re-written with discoveries made since then.

I even had one pompous Professor who claimed that he had the definite " Histories" on everything that happened during the Civil War. During the course of a 2 semester Course on American Constitutional History, he was presented with " new " information by some of us undergrads, and by his grauate students that contradicted most of his early published writings. The last day of class, he admitted that many of his earlier works were wrong, and that he was going to have to reexamine them in light of the new research he had been shown. My respect for the man grew mightily, although he was still insufferable in person.

The same is going on all the time with the history of gun usage. I was merely trying to point out that while guns have changed, People haven't. I wasn't there, either. But, my experience about how people act around guns, and in fighting, tells me that the historical accounts of people picking up weapons on battle fields from the fallen friends and foe going all the way back to Babylonia, and before, are true.

American settlers went west of the Appalachians, in spite of British laws that forbade it, to find new lands, and make new futures for their families. They were there before the French and Indian wars. They went there after that war. In 1777, they were slaughtered by Indians raiding out of the North by the thousands, in lonely homesteads, where their graves were unmarked. What they had with them, who they were, and what guns were taken from their bodies by the Indians can never be known.

But, a lot of Hessian, and British soldiers deserted over those years, and fled inland to avoid arrest and execution, finding wives, and making homes in the wilderness. They were the same kind of " outlaws" that have always lived at the fringe of civilization. They didn't desert the army over cowardice. Ill treatment, bad food, or the love of a bondservant might be motive enough, but they were hardly cowards.

I know these facts are true because of the scant written historical records that do exist, and comments by contemporary writers. But they were writing about people, not guns, and what Indians " preferred". It is the history of people that tells me that people were no different then than they are now. And that is why our common experiences tell us that anyone who says " never " about anything doing with humans is kidding themselves.

My father, who did not go to college, was fond of saying, " Believe only half of what you see, and nothing of what you read, and you will be okay". His advice still is not too far from the truth.
 
Good Lord! This is nearly unbelievable! :shake: You have to be one of the windiest people I've ever run across. :haha: One thing has always been obvious with you Paul, the less you know about something the more you tend to write to cover up the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about. Probably has something to do with your profession.
Read the following books then we'll be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subjects. Your reliance on what you learned in collage 40 years ago just isn't current enough, in fact it's mostly folklore.
These will cover alot of info on the Brown Bess and the carbines.
"PATTERN DATES FOR BRITISH ORDINANCE SMALL ARMS 1718-1783" by Dewitt Bailey

"MUSKETS OF THE REVOLUTION AND THE FRENCH AND INDIAN WARS" BY Bill Ahearn
This one is especially interesting with many fist hand references as to what arms the Indians preferred.
"BRITISH MILITARY FLINTLOCK RIFLES 1740-1840"
Dewitt Bailey again.
And these by TM Hamilton on Indian trade guns:
"EARLY INDIAN TRADE GUNS 1625-1775
"FIREARMS ON THE FRONTIER: GUNS AT FORT MICHILIMACKINAC 1715-1781
"COLONIAL FRONTIER GUNS"
More on Indian trade guns:
"THE NORTHWEST GUN" by C.E. Hanson
"TRADE GUNS OF THE HUDSON'R BAY COMPANY 1670-1970" by S.J. Gooding
"THE FUSIL DE TULLE IN NEW FRANCE 1691-1741" by R. Bouchard
"SUCCESS IN THE NORTH AMERICAN FUR TRADE" by B.Conner
"PROCEEDINGS OF THE 1984 TRADE GUN CONFERENCE" Vol I & II
That ought to be enough to give you some basic knowledge on the subjects.
 
First your story is none. Now its " not in sufficient numbers. " You are weaseling, a common debating tactic. Oh, and supposedly its not west of the Appalachians, as if the Indians had to pay a toll, or register, to go over the crest! We have seen guns show up all over the Eastern United States and Canada, and they may have traveled back and forth.
I'm not "weaseling" on anything, I'm just stating the facts as they are known by experts in the field that have the most up to date knowledge on the subject.
We do supplement history with Archeology, but again, that only gives a part of the picture. New evidence found in all kinds of places unknown by historians, changes what they have written, and it happens all the time.
That's what I've been trying to tell you, the fairy book history you learned in college 40 years ago is woefully inadequate when compared to what has been learned about the subject in the past 40 years. I'm trying to relate current day understanding and you're repeating incorrect information that is out of date by DECADES. You need to get up to speed if you want to discuss early colonial history and small arms of the 18th century.
The oldest such discovery now known is the finding of a huge archeological site in the Western Egyptian Desert, that indicates a 4th pyramid, and gives information that changes our understanding of the Great Pyramids.

The Dead Sea scrolls are another example of new information found 2,000 years after the Bible was written, that modifies what we thought we knew.

When I was in college, NO ONE could read the hyrogliphics in the Mayan, and INCAN tombs. Today they can. It has completely changed what we knew back 30 years ago about these civilizations and how they dealt with their environment.
What in the hell does this have to do with anything? :youcrazy: Obviously it's a continued effort to cover up the fact that you really have no idea what you're talking about....so, it's time to blow a bunch of smoke around to cover up tha fact....very typical.
You seem to grab onto books, and legers as if they were the Ten Commandments, written by God. MY fellow classmates and I were dispelled of such grand ideas before I completed my first history course.
I see no other way to study the subject. We have very little else to go on except archaeological evidence.
If you knew some of the GOOFs who are now " noted " historians, that I have met, you would not be so married to the idea that any book can give you " Historically Correct " anything. History is constantly being re-written as more artifacts are found, in more places.
Which is exactly what I've been trying to get through your thick skull.....there has been alot of new information uncovered since you went to college 40 years and became an expert on Brown Bess carbines and Indian trade guns.
My respect for the man grew mightily, although he was still insufferable in person.
Sounds like a familiar situation...... :haha:
I was merely trying to point out that while guns have changed, People haven't. I wasn't there, either. But, my experience about how people act around guns, and in fighting, tells me that the historical accounts of people picking up weapons on battle fields from the fallen friends and foe going all the way back to Babylonia, and before, are true.
Sorry, completely different culture back then. Don't ever assume Colonial people had 21st century ideals. :nono:
American settlers went west of the Appalachians, in spite of British laws that forbade it, to find new lands, and make new futures for their families. They were there before the French and Indian wars. They went there after that war. In 1777, they were slaughtered by Indians raiding out of the North by the thousands, in lonely homesteads, where their graves were unmarked. What they had with them, who they were, and what guns were taken from their bodies by the Indians can never be known.

But, a lot of Hessian, and British soldiers deserted over those years, and fled inland to avoid arrest and execution, finding wives, and making homes in the wilderness. They were the same kind of " outlaws" that have always lived at the fringe of civilization. They didn't desert the army over cowardice. Ill treatment, bad food, or the love of a bondservant might be motive enough, but they were hardly cowards.

I know these facts are true because of the scant written historical records that do exist, and comments by contemporary writers. But they were writing about people, not guns, and what Indians " preferred". It is the history of people that tells me that people were no different then than they are now. And that is why our common experiences tell us that anyone who says " never " about anything doing with humans is kidding themselves.

My father, who did not go to college, was fond of saying, " Believe only half of what you see, and nothing of what you read, and you will be okay". His advice still is not too far from the truth.
What all this is about and how it all relates to Bess carbines and Indian trade gun escapes me....I'm guessing this is another effort to blow smoke and confuse the issue. :yakyak:
 
That's it, Mike: When all else fails a good ad hominem attack on the opponent( name calling) followed with an exhaustive list of every book you have on your bookshelves. My GOD, Mike. Are you sure you don't have PhD in History?

I have known so may degreed historians who try to overwhelm their readers, and critics by listing the longest biographies!( What reader, other than another History major, who is assigned the task of reviewing all your sources to determine if they actually do represent what you say they do, and then, if they really refute the opponent's argument would dare to read your Bibliography???)

Its really an overused ploy. Can't you come up with something like -- LOGIC? YOu remind me suddenly of the time I was hired by a Downstate lawyer who did not have an extensive library at hand, to review a brief filed by the big law firm on the other side of his case, and tell him what all the cases said. Other than the first case, which was directly on point, and would win the pretrial motion, against my attorney, ALL THE REST OF THE CASES CITED were either non-existent, or totally NOT on the issue. I spent 3 hours in the Library discovering that fact, but didn't brief them, or try to find the correct cases, since the first case disposed of the issue against the attorney who hired me. I called him the next day, told him the news, and asked him if he still wanted every one of the other cases cited briefed? He decided he could proceed another way.

Why don't you do the same?? Is it really so terrible to recognize that some of the precious Brown Bess had their barrels shortened AFTER THEY LEFT THE FACTORY??? And maybe by people who didn't ask permission of the Crown??? GEEEES! You are tightly wound on this matter.
 
Hey
I'm not arguing, I'm trying to find information on carbines. I know the work is 30 years old because that's about how long ago I bought the book. As a matter of fact I sold George Neumann a Dutch musket way back then.
So now let me ask the question, prior to The 1750s where the carbines cut down Besses?
If you tell me they were not could you give me the documentation.
Thanks
 
Hey
Mike thanks for the list of books. I have some of them and I will get some of them on your list.
 
That's it, Mike: When all else fails a good ad hominem attack on the opponent( name calling) followed with an exhaustive list of every book you have on your bookshelves. My GOD, Mike. Are you sure you don't have PhD in History?
I probably should have a Phd in history Paul, I just never went to school to get it. As far as the "exhaustive" (11 isn't exhaustive)list, it isn't anywhere near what is actually on my shelves, just what I thought you ought to be familiar with before you can discuss this subject with any authority.
Can't you come up with something like -- LOGIC
As I've pointed out before, the way we think in the 21st century and the way our fore fathers though in the 18th century are entirely two different trains of thought.
YOu remind me suddenly of the time I was hired by a Downstate lawyer who did not have an extensive library at hand, to review a brief filed by the big law firm on the other side of his case, and tell him what all the cases said. Other than the first case, which was directly on point, and would win the pretrial motion, against my attorney, ALL THE REST OF THE CASES CITED were either non-existent, or totally NOT on the issue. I spent 3 hours in the Library discovering that fact, but didn't brief them, or try to find the correct cases, since the first case disposed of the issue against the attorney who hired me. I called him the next day, told him the news, and asked him if he still wanted every one of the other cases cited briefed? He decided he could proceed another way.
I'm not a smoke blower Paul. I'm just trying to put the correct information out there and point out to those that don't already know that you're putting out out dated information on this subject. All of the books I listed cover the subjects extensively and are the most current reference material that can be found at this time. If you want to turn up your nose at this information that's fine, but just keep your fingers off the keyboards with your 21st century LOGIC of Brown Bess carbines and Indian trade guns, you're doing those that really want to know the correct information a great disservice by writing your lengthy and rambling dissertations on your outdated notions of 18th century culture and guns.
You remind me of my rendezvous days when I'd listen to all the mountain man types repeat all this kind ridiculous BS to tourists. They could really spin a tale, and not a word of truth in it. :haha:
By the way, I really get a kick out of the fact that you think I'd take time to put that list of books together just so it sounds like I'm some sort of big shot. It's even more amusing that you would suggest that they don't have any pertinent information on the subject. :haha:
 
chuckpa said:
Hey
I'm not arguing, I'm trying to find information on carbines. I know the work is 30 years old because that's about how long ago I bought the book. As a matter of fact I sold George Neumann a Dutch musket way back then.
So now let me ask the question, prior to The 1750s where the carbines cut down Besses?
If you tell me they were not could you give me the documentation.
Thanks
There are only two types of carbines that saw service in North America prior to 1750.
The 1744 Horse (Calvary) 37" heavy walled slightly swamped barrel. Most all the parts were on a reduced scale from a land pattern musket.
And the 1745 Lord Louden (Light Infantry)42 inch barrel bayonet stud sight. First use of "light infantry" pattern Trigger guard thumb piece and buttplate and a unique side plate.
Both of these guns were specifically made as carbines and were not cut down long land muskets.
Info from pages 59 and 60 of "PATTERN DATES FOR BRITISH ORDANANCE SMALL ARMS 1718-1783."
 
chuckpa said:
Hey
Mike thanks for the list of books. I have some of them and I will get some of them on your list.
You're welcome, and I'm sure you'll find them as fascinating and as valuable resource information sources as I have.
 
Considering the number of members here, who have posted pictures of guns, and commented about guns seen in various museums, I don't think my ideas about 18th century life are colored by 21st century thinking at all. You just don't want to accept anyone elses information about what is NOW known because it differs from the carefully formed conclusions you hold.

I wish you had studied history in College. You might have learned the working parameters of being a historian, and you would not be making such statements. Every good historian is aware of his own bias based on current living. We work very hard to push that aside, and base our conclusions on ALL the histories we read about the period, NOT JUST GUN BOOKS. This is the Way good history is Researhed on All topics. You read not only books on the specific topic, but study general histories, diaries, letters, old newspapers, etc., recognizing that each " source " has a bias also. Best wishes to you and your books.
 
Considering the number of members here, who have posted pictures of guns, and commented about guns seen in various museums, I don't think my ideas about 18th century life are colored by 21st century thinking at all.
Well, all I can suggest is that you read more up to date information. Bubbas postings on the Internet of what he saw at some museum is not something to base any opinion on.
You just don't want to accept anyone elses information about what is NOW known because it differs from the carefully formed conclusions you hold.
Paul....I'VE been the one telling YOU that your information is out of date. I can't believe you haven't caught on to that fact yet.... :doh:
I wish you had studied history in College. You might have learned the working parameters of being a historian, and you would not be making such statements. Every good historian is aware of his own bias based on current living.
This is getting overly tedious..... :cursing: I'm not injecting my own bias, I'm quoting authors that have books that are considered the latest information on the subject. Did you have a learning disability in school by chance.....you don't seem to be paying attention....
ALL the histories we read about the period, NOT JUST GUN BOOKS. This is the Way good history is Researhed on All topics. You read not only books on the specific topic, but study general histories, diaries, letters, old newspapers, etc., recognizing that each " source " has a bias also.
All of that is fine as long as the information you are using is the latest and most up to date that is available. Your information are sadly sadly lacking. :shake:
By the way, how about backing up some of your statements with some documentation in the future?
 
Thank you mike
But is George Neumann wrong then when he says that they did make carbines that were short Besses and not scaled down?Now I don't care if they were not used in North America.
The other thing is Mike I'm very interested in Naval Arms. I think it was JD that stated that these carbines were some type of mystery. I don't know why they would be a mystery if there are examples of them. Can you shed any light on this. Thanks for all of your help
 
This bookk covers naval too......but I need to cook diner at the moment.....maybe tomorrow morning for an answer?
 
Mike,

The "Bubba's Postings" bit was over the top....

I simply meant that I was willing to take a road trip here in Maine to view the State Museum collection...and was willing to report on what I found...

Obviously, that is not necessary :cursing:

Tell you what, I did not expect that from you. And do not feel it was necessary....

I simply came here to learn about these guns and that is why I started the topic. So far, this has been a most informative discussion.

There is no reason to slight anyone....

Giz
 
gizamo said:
Mike,

The "Bubba's Postings" bit was over the top....

I simply meant that I was willing to take a road trip here in Maine to view the State Museum collection...and was willing to report on what I found...

Obviously, that is not necessary :cursing:

Tell you what, I did not expect that from you. And do not feel it was necessary....

I simply came here to learn about these guns and that is why I started the topic. So far, this has been a most informative discussion.

There is no reason to slight anyone....

Giz
WOW! many apologies :bow: I wasn't referring to anyone specific, I didn't even recall that anyone had mentioned anything about going to a museum in this thread besides Paul. The thread has went on so long it's hard to keep straight just what has been covered. Please be assured that that remark was not directed towards you in any way. Again, please accept my apologies... You have my official okey dokey to call me Bubba anytime you wish in the future. :v
 
Mike,

Ok, maybe I overreacted and can agree that it has been a long thread...

Still OK to call you Bubba, now and again :wink:

Giz
 
Still OK to call you Bubba, now and again
You bet! :haha: I've become pretty thick skinned sparring on the keyboard with Mr. V. over the years. :wink:
 
Mike,

Too much fun... :v
Time for a little levity......

Perhaps this is the equivalent of a smoothbore snubbie......

FlintPistol001.jpg




At any rate, we know return our regular viewers to the rest of the program :)


giz
 
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