Whats your opinion on this one?

[ToothPick]

I was browsing a local gun shop and ran across this 20ga? flintlock smooth bore.

It was in nice condition with no noticeable cracks etc. Lock worked as should. The ram rod is wood.

The clerk new absolutely nothing about it except that they just put it out.

I was wondering if anybody here has any info as to origin, age or value?

Sorry about pictures...not the best quality

I could not find any stamps or marks anywhere on it.

Thanks

 

[wulf]

Could be a 1777 Charley.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Looks like a Charleyville.

 

[Artificer]

I would suggest looking for any of these names of French Arsenals on the lock plate to determine if the musket is French:

1. Tulle
2. St. Etienne
3. Charleville

You may be interested in the following link explaining the differences between the M 1777 in the pictures and other French Muskets. http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm

There is also an outside chance this is either an American "assembled" Arm (made from at least some cannibalized parts from earlier muskets) or an American made arm from during or within a decade or two after the AWI. All American Springfield and Harpers Ferry Armories' Muskets from the M1795 through the M1840 Flintlock Muskets were copies of French muskets.

Gus

 

[ToothPick]

.........

You may be interested in the following link explaining the differences between the M 1777 in the pictures and other French Muskets. http://www.jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm

There is also an outside chance this is either an American "assembled" Arm (made from at least some cannibalized parts from earlier muskets) or an American made arm from during or within a decade or two after the AWI. All American Springfield and Harpers Ferry Armories' Muskets from the M1795 through the M1840 Flintlock Muskets were copies of French muskets.

Gus

Thanks guys. After reading that article and more googling pictures, I am leaning towards either a parts gun or Belgian copy of a charleville.

 

[Many Klatch]

You might tell the clerk to let the hammer down instead of having it at full cock. No need to stress the mainspring anymore than necessary.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You may find it's a trade gun made for the African trade in the 20th century.

LD

 

[Farren55]

Was the pan on the musket Brass or Iron, also were there any X marks on the top of the Barrel?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I think this is a gun cobbled together from old parts. The lock is from a French model 1777 musket or a close copy. However, there is no sling swivel stud forward of the trigger guard bow and the guard does not have the finger ridges. It is from a different gun. The barrel bands may be from a model 1777 but if so, the forward double band should have a screw protruding from the right side that locks the band against the anti-twist lug on the barrel. Moreover, the barrel is wrong. The bayonet lug should be on the left side angled downward not on the top like a sight. Also note how little wear and tear appears around the lock panels. Somebody built a musket from old parts. Of course the ramrod is a replacement and too short. The French muskets had iron rods.

dave

 

[ToothPick]

Hi,
I think this is a gun cobbled together from old parts. The lock is from a French model 1777 musket or a close copy. However, there is no sling swivel stud forward of the trigger guard bow and the guard does not have the finger ridges. It is from a different gun. The barrel bands may be from a model 1777 but if so, the forward double band should have a screw protruding from the right side that locks the band against the anti-twist lug on the barrel. Moreover, the barrel is wrong. The bayonet lug should be on the left side angled downward not on the top like a sight. Also note how little wear and tear appears around the lock panels. Somebody built a musket from old parts. Of course the ramrod is a replacement and too short. The French muskets had iron rods.

dave

I think you hit the nail on the head. I went and looked at it again and took some more pics. I was wrong, the ram rod is iron with a screwdriver formed on the end and as you said, too short.

To me, The frizzen spring looks a little short too

Here are a few more pics of the gun showing the lock, trigger and trigger guard and the muzzle end.

I looked closer, under better light this time and still can not find any markings.

The line on the lock plate may be a flaw and not a crack...not sure tho.

They are asking $700

Thanks

 

[Artificer]

Great Pics! Very interesting.

In the pic above, I may be seeing something I want to see that is not there, but is the area just forward of the cock sort of dished out a little, possibly from obliterating the original engraving?

Also, though Dave Person made some excellent points, I do have to bring up that some M1777 French Muskets did have the bayonet lug on top of the barrel. Not sure how common that was and if that was early or late in production, or maybe from a different French Government Armory? Normally when the bayonet lug was on the top of the barrel, the brass front sight on the front band was higher; but in this case it looks like both the Brass Front sight and Bayonet lug have been filed down - perhaps to fit the eyesight of an owner sometime after it was made? Also, is the bayonet lug directly in line with the front sight or is it off to the right a few degrees from top dead center?

Gus

P.S. The filing down of the front sight and bayonet lug also seems to go along with maybe the same guy filing the end of the correct Steel Rammer down to a screwdriver blade you mentioned and thus shortening the original length of the rammer?

 

[Artificer]

BTW, IF a later owner did "sporterize" the musket as it seems someone did, that might also explain why the rear sling swivel and ridges are gone from the trigger guard?

Gus

 

[nhmoose]

At $700 it would have gone home with me.

 

[Zonie]

At $700 it would have gone home with me.

Me too. :thumbsup:

Even if it is a "parts gun", the workmanship involved in putting it together seems to be very good.
The joints between the lock and the sideplate with the stock was certainly not done by a amateur.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
The trigger guard may not be from a French gun. The rounded ends look American to me. The lack of a swivel stud is still troubling. The Front barrel band is also not from a French model 1777 or Anno IX musket. It looks like an earlier pattern. My references show model 1777 bayonet lugs on the side of the barrel but there could easily be variation within the models.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Dave,

I keep looking at the rammer and wonder if someone stuck a rammer from a M1842 musket in this gun a long time ago?

I'm also slightly wondering if this was a U.S. Contract Musket that was modified and sporterized to hide the fact it was originally U.S. property?

Would LOVE to see pictures inside the lock plate to see what marks may be there.

Gus

 

[satx78247]

To All,

I suspect (but do NOT know) that it's an "Indian trade gun" assembled from old parts in the post-1900 period, somewhere in Europe.

I saw LOTS of similar guns in South America (in the hands of "native hunters") in the 1990s that were assemblages of various British, French, German & other "surplus" parts.
(MOST of those smoothies were about 18-20 gauge.)

Oddly enough, most of those "assembled flintlocks" shot quite well & the "native hunters" collected a lot of "bush meat" with them out to 50M or so. = I saw an "El Tigre" which had been killed with a goodly amount of nuts/bolts.
(Flintlocks are NOT considered to be "firearms" OR "deadly weapons" in much of Central & South America & can be imported/bought/sold/traded without restriction. - In some countries, percussion guns are NOT considered to be firearms, either.)

yours, satx

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Dave Person,

The photo of the rear portion of the trigger guard, there is a squarish hole..., was that a slot for the tab from a rear sling swivel, which would be inserted and cross pinned below the trigger guard surface?

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

At $700 it would have gone home with me.

I agree, especially if the bore was at all serviceable.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

parts gun

My guess. IMHO, $700.00 is too much without knowing more. If the lock is good that price is tops. Not many customers looking for something like that. I'll betcha you can negotiate a lower price.