What Makes a "Better" Component?

[TDM]

Honestly, I found myself parroting the lines I had been fed from trusted individuals with no reasoning other than "they" had told me so. That's why I'm curious, I want to know the why I too have guns with both Green Mountain and T/C barrels, and I'm not a good enough shooter to make either of them less accurate than the other.

We've got some Traditions guns in our 4-H stocks, and I've never had an issue with them compared to our T/C's (which have also proved reliable). However, when I pull a Traditions from the safe, one of my volunteers tells me to "put that junk back". I do trust his opinion, but I've never been able to get an answer as to why they are "junk"

The only real problem I’ve personally experienced with less expensive rifles is if they’re flintlocks. A poor performing lock is frustrating. But if they’re percussion it’s usually not a problem. The Traditions Deer Hunter percussion that I gave to my granddaughter is extremely accurate and fun to shoot.

 

[Snooterpup]

Honestly, I found myself parroting the lines I had been fed from trusted individuals with no reasoning other than "they" had told me so. That's why I'm curious, I want to know the why I too have guns with both Green Mountain and T/C barrels, and I'm not a good enough shooter to make either of them less accurate than the other.

We've got some Traditions guns in our 4-H stocks, and I've never had an issue with them compared to our T/C's (which have also proved reliable). However, when I pull a Traditions from the safe, one of my volunteers tells me to "put that junk back". I do trust his opinion, but I've never been able to get an answer as to why they are "junk"

At the lower cost price point, many black powder guns do not have the fit, finish, or quality parts that more expensive guns do. I have an old Lyman GPR. The set trigger assembly is garbage, but with careful work now functions well. Will it ever equal a high quality set trigger assembly? Heck no, but the darn thing works and gets the job done. Some, like the guy you know, want quality and performance and are willing to pay for it.
There are an awful lot of dead deer and winning targets shot with CVA, Traditions, and Investarms rifles.
A hardware store axe will do the same job as a Granfors and leave extra money on the table. There should be room for all at the muzzleloading table but you do definitely get what you pay for.

 

[Pete G]

Seems that some equate cost for quality. If it costs more it is worth more. Not Everyone agrees.

 

[Snooterpup]

Seems that some equate cost for quality. If it costs more it is worth more. Not Everyone agrees.

Most would agree a Chambers or Kibler lock will far outperform a CVA in function and reliability, especially flintlock mechanisms. Lesser price points usually involve production shortcuts, but again, many more affordable rifles get the job done. I prefer to say if it’s worth more it probably costs more. In the end the buyer gets what he can afford.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Right. I know someone who won’t touch a Traditions gun. When I ask him why, he says “Because they’re junk!” I’ve never gotten a deeper answer than that. I’m not debating if he’s wrong or not, but as someone who is fairly new to the sport, I’d like to know the “why”.

As @TDM and @Snooterpup have pointed out, the Traditions (and previous CVA) entry level rifles used cheaper wood, locks with weak springs, unbridled locks and triggers that were rough to pull. The weak locks were good enough to ignite the main charge in a percussion gun but often didn't throw a reliable shower of sparks for reliable flintlock ignition. Now with tuning of the lock and trigger, reasonable performance could be obtained. The barrels were of high quality and capable of excellent accuracy. The guns were built to meet a low manufacturing cost to be sure. None-the-less, those guns brought many of us into Traditional muzzleloading and deserve some respect.

 

[Snooterpup]

As @TDM and @Snooterpup have pointed out, the Traditions (and previous CVA) entry level rifles used cheaper wood, locks with weak springs, unbridled locks and triggers that were rough to pull. The weak locks were good enough to ignite the main charge in a percussion gun but often didn't throw a reliable shower of sparks for reliable flintlock ignition. Now with tuning of the lock and trigger, reasonable performance could be obtained. The barrels were of high quality and capable of excellent accuracy. The guns were built to meet a low manufacturing cost to be sure. None-the-less, those guns brought many of us into Traditional muzzleloading and deserve some respect.

I am in complete agreement.

 

[Trigger]

I wanted barrels for some guns over the years... always ended up with a gun instead.. cost of barrel.

The cheap Shotgun deer barrels were i think around 400 back 20 years ago.

smart you got the combo.. two barrels scope and all for not much more.

I kinda want the rifle barrel for the new englander. The sets go for 900 ish. It's not much more to get two new englanders. Figure extra stock to. buy the barrel get a free stock.

 

[kelljp]

Exactly. If we go with the barrel question for example. I'm comparing 2 T/C "Hawken" guns. Identical in every aspect (including bore condition) except that one has a standard T/C barrel, the other has a Green Mountain. Seller is charging $100 more for the Green Mountain, because of the "better barrel". Why is it better?

I've had several of each, and when adding the barrel to the equation of accuracy that's the least likely item. It's more me than the tool. Most people will pay more for a "round ball" barrel. Most GM barrels I've had are 1:66 as opposed to TCs 1:48 twist. The length is also typically longer than TCs 27 inch. It's all perspective opinion as I see it. I haven't had one of their LRH barrels so I can't comment.

 

[Frontstuffer070]

I'll chime in with my .02. After retiring from the Military I have spent 2 years working for a company that produces evil black unmentionables among other "evil" freedom seed dispensers. My take is this. I think for the most part the increase in cost is simply a matter of time spent on the product. As was mentioned, fit and finish takes time and time is valuable. With that said. I have three of those "Junk" rifles, all of them factory built. Two Traditions percussion guns ( Hawken Woodsman, Kentucky), and an old Made in USA CVA Mountain. And it is very true the fit and finish could be a lot better, the wood to metal fit isn't all that great and the inlet in the lock area is pretty terrible. Wood splinters everywhere under the locks when I got them. So it was time spent cleaning them up. The stocks are Beech wood. It doesn't fit the "pretty" category, but it is tough as nails. There are many proven battle rifles sporting beech stocks. The barrels have shallow grooves as compared to my GM Kibler barrel. I'm hard pressed to go in the woods without that Junk Kentucky. The thing will shoot, things die, and I'm fed. The Woodrunner when I finish it will hopefully take the crown from the Kentucky and I'll pass that one on to my son and let him make his own memories with it.

 

[Trigger]

I'll chime in with my .02. After retiring from the Military I have spent 2 years working for a company that produces evil black unmentionables among other "evil" freedom seed dispensers. My take is this. I think for the most part the increase in cost is simply a matter of time spent on the product. As was mentioned, fit and finish takes time and time is valuable. With that said. I have three of those "Junk" rifles, all of them factory built. Two Traditions percussion guns ( Hawken Woodsman, Kentucky), and an old Made in USA CVA Mountain. And it is very true the fit and finish could be a lot better, the wood to metal fit isn't all that great and the inlet in the lock area is pretty terrible. Wood splinters everywhere under the locks when I got them. So it was time spent cleaning them up. The stocks are Beech wood. It doesn't fit the "pretty" category, but it is tough as nails. There are many proven battle rifles sporting beech stocks. The barrels have shallow grooves as compared to my GM Kibler barrel. I'm hard pressed to go in the woods without that Junk Kentucky. The thing will shoot, things die, and I'm fed. The Woodrunner when I finish it will hopefully take the crown from the Kentucky and I'll pass that one on to my son and let him make his own memories with it.

I kinda wish there was a poor man Shotgun... like traditions Shotgun.

There cheap.. I could complain about it too.. I'll take a Pic. Camo came off the stock of my first inline. It's a nice white now I like it better so I never complain ed. The wife took the white one.

For the money... great gun to get started with. Got me started.

Its kinda an other forum topic drift. but the stock was all the camo. I started liking it more again now.

White looks good.

 

[Rebel bull]

Although, @Snooterpup, I would draw the line differently when it comes to the T/C QLA barrels. They were rebated to make loading/alignment of the T/C conical bullets easier. Quality control issues are noted with alignment of the QLA rebate and round ball shooting suffered. The older T/C barrels were better as noted above.

QLA barrels are every bit as accurate as any other barrel with the same twist as long as you cut at the muzzle. the problem with QLA is maintaining the ball in the center of the patch. so if your are using precut patches or commercial patches use a larger size ie: .490 ball use a 60-69 caliber patch the excess material won't affect your accuracy at all

 

[Scota@4570]

Good barrels are uniform in size for the length of the barrel. You can run a lead slug through the barrel to check this. Many barrels have tight and loose spots. Good barrels have a smooth finish inside. The best barrels are lead lapped to achieve both of the above. Even batter a slight choke is lapped in, making a unicorn barrel. : )

Good barrels have grooves that are wider than the lands. IF you get a barrel with narrow grooves reject it. I have never had such a barrel shoot well. I scrapped them all.

The shape of the rifling does not matter as long as we observe the previous criteria. However I have had round bottom barrel with wide lands, the result was poor accuracy.

Depth of grooves is debatable. I have observed that barrels like TC and 45-70 cartridge barrels shoot patched ball extremely well. I believe that is because the patch gets compression all the way around the ball that is sufficient to prevent gas blow by. Others get accuracy from deep grooves, just not me. I made a pistol out of a 40SW blank. The grooves are extremely shallow. IT shot really good most of the time but threw fliers. I attribute that to stripping.


What is accurate? To me, accurate is 1" for five shots off the bench at 50 yards for a rifle, 25 yards for a pistol. I do keep the barrel clean by swabbing every five shots or so.

Steel alloy strength does not matter. Most ML barrel are made from free machining material like 12L14. This is plenty strong. Being easy to machine smooth you get a better finish. This is important. A barrel made from 4140 would cost much-much more and getting a good finish is much more difficult.

 

[reddogge]

Back in the late 70s/early 80s I bought 3 barrels from my friend Ron Griffie. You wouldn't know who he was unless you were shooting around the MD area. He rifled his own barrels but I don't know who he bought the blanks from. All three are round bottom rifled and very accurate. I also bought a .36 barrel from H&H (Hobbes and Hoppy Hopkins) during that same period. Another kind of local supplier with the reputation of producing very precise match quality barrels although they took their operation from MD to FL. I'm very fortunate to own all four of these barrels.

 

[longcruise]

The only real problem I’ve personally experienced with less expensive rifles is if they’re flintlocks. A poor performing lock is frustrating. But if they’re percussion it’s usually not a problem. The Traditions Deer Hunter percussion that I gave to my granddaughter is extremely accurate and fun to shoot.

Interesting that you brought that up. I had a Traditions Deer Hunter in 50 that was very accurate. And remained accurate even loaded with 80 grains of 3f. Passed it along to a grandson and he does very well with it in match shooting.