What do I have?

[Lonegun1894]

I went with a friend to look at a few guns, and ended up bringing one home with me :idunno: . It is a double barrel caplock with "made in India" stamped on top of the barrels just in front of the breech. The barrels themselves are 31 inches long measured with a dowel down the muzzles, and 31.5 muzzles to nipples. The barrels are also stamped with the date 1973.

The markings next are going from breech to muzzle:
-"12" in a diamond, which I assume is to identify the gun as a 12 ga, and just forward of that on both is the measurement .710" which is to my surprize correct when I checked the muzzles with a dial caliper.
-next is "not nitro" which I assume means to NOT use smokeless powder.
-89 grs 1 1/4 oz, which seems to be the manufacturer recommended load, or would that be maximim load? Either way, I will work up a load for this gun based on what the gun wants and the use so we will see how close I end up to this.
--the next stamp is on the right barrel only, and states "English Material Superior Quality M.L.Gun"

Once again moving back towards the breech, near the bottom of the right barrel it says "mhati & co. jodhpur"

DR557 is stamped on the gub several times, almost like they were trying to make sure the manufacturer only put parts with that stamped on it on this gun. The breech also has a clock face or round flower like stamp with "p" stamped next just underneath it. Next to this is a stamp I cant identify as it is a partial stamp, but may be a crown with "RP" just under it. I assume these are proof marks.

Even though the barrels have the "12"s on them, being .710 would make this a 13 gauge gun. Also, wiping it with a tight patch, the gun gets loose for the first 8-10 inches from the breech, then tightens up slightly and gives consistent resistance from there until the muzzle, which makes me think it is cylinder bore.

The nipples are stuck, and look like the gun has been dryfired, so I will replace those once I get them out anf find out which ones I need. The barrel is soaking in oil right now as per Loui's stuck nipple thread (Thank You Loui for asking, aand everyone else answering. :hatsoff: :bow: I didnt know I'd need that information when it was asked but it's coming in very handy now just a few days later.)

If anyone has any information, advice, or would like to correct any mistakes I made above (probably quite a few), or anything else, please correct me. The only ML SB I have dealt with before this is my GPR with GM .54 smooth barrel, and that gun has much thicker barrel walls, and also weighs probably about 3 pounds more. I really like that .54, but have found myself using it more like a rifle, whereas this double just seems to jump up and mount itself to my shoulder. Thank you for any information anyone can give me to help. :hatsoff:

 

[Shine]

mhati and co johdpur is indian.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I hate to say it, but what you have is a made in India wall hanger. With the inconsistent bulges inside the barrel I wouldn't trust anything about the gun.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Even though the barrels have the "12"s on them, being .710 would make this a 13 gauge gun. Also, wiping it with a tight patch, the gun gets loose for the first 8-10 inches from the breech, then tightens up slightly and gives consistent resistance from there until the muzzle, which makes me think it is cylinder bore.

Cylinder bore would be consistant from breech to muzzle. The 0.710" at the muzzle and the internal taper hints more towards a 12 gauge barrel with modified choke (0.700" is Full, 0.710" is Modified, 0.715 Skeet #2, 0.720 is Improved Cylinder, 0.725 Skeet #1).

Here is something similar at an auction site. Looks like a serviceable shotgun if it matches this one.
http://www.gunauction.com/closed/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8120981.0


PS - don't be so quick to write off India. They were the first region in the world to understand and fabricate steel weapons. But, like Belgium, there are some very good and some very bad products and much in between.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Stumpkiller,
If you take off the sling and cheek piece, that is exactly the same gun. I've been trying to google it any way I could think of and kept coming up blank, thank you :bow: . Everything is tight and feels solid, and the metal actually looks good with the exception of one spot on the side of one barrel where the finish has been worn off like you see often with a gunrack wearing finish off in a spot or two. How'd you know about the "New Light Art..."?

On a sidenote, since you say it is a choked gun due to the identical taper, If I use components for a .710, it will be too loose and probably unsafe, is there any way to measurethe internal diameter near the breech? It isnt loose enough to drop in, and is consistent, so I dont think it is a bulge, as it is the same for 8-10", but you can definitely feel that it is looser than the 20"(?) inches near the muzzle. Now I have to figure out wad/card sizes, or just use it with PRB for deer/hog. Isnt the usual recommendation to turn the cards sideways and bend them, and then just use the ram rod to straighten them out to provide a gas seal once they're further down the barrel? Sorry, new territory for me cause of the choke. And I thought my GM .54 smoothie gave was different when I first got it.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Rifleman,
The bulges, or I guess I should have said the loose area at the breech end, is very consistent, and seems to be identical as far as placement and resistance goes. Now this is all measured with the ram rod the gun came with, so not much help as far as being able to give y'all an actual measurement. But for what its worth, both barrels loosen up at the same exact spot when using a tight patch going from muzzle to breech, and the effort required to wipe both barrels seems to be identical weather wiping left or right barrel.

With all due respect, Rifleman, I hope you're wrong about it being a wallhanger, but also know that you might be right, based on previous experiance with other Indian guns. Some shot incredibly well, others probably shouldn't have been shot at all. I guess I will start off with some very light loads and work my way up from there. I hope this shotgun works out, and if not, well, lesson learned. Bad thing is that I've been trying to move away from cap to flint, and then this came up and was a deal I couldnt refuse. Thank you for the words of caution, I will keep them in mind.

 

[Stumpkiller]

On a sidenote, since you say it is a choked gun due to the identical taper, If I use components for a .710, it will be too loose and probably unsafe, is there any way to measurethe internal diameter near the breech?

One method to measure it would be inside calipers, but the length you would need would be rare.

Try felt wads for a choked shotgun. Tow also allows any choke as it goes in as a loose tangle and you pack it tight. I would bet regular 12 bore Circle Fly wads and cards will work, but a dowel about 1/8" below muzzle diameter will help you make a good crimp that has a better chance of opening up evenly once inside.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Great idea, why didn't I think of tow? Now to try and figure out what kind of nipples I need. Ok, gotta find the tap/die set since that's where my thread gauges are...

Ok, does 5/16x24 seem right to y'all? It seems a bit loose in the die but the thread seems to fit perfectly, except that very slight side to side play. The closest it comes to fitting on the metric side of things is a 7x1.0, which is just slightly too tight, but when I tried 8x1.0 it doesnt even want to engage the threads. I want to call it 5/16x24, but also dont want to have it come loose and have the breech velocity exceed to muzzle velocity. :shocked2: Then again, if it fits the way it does, I would think that once it is tightened down into the breech, it should be safe. Am I on the right track?

 

[Lonegun1894]

Nevermind, I was wrong. I just found it at TOTW, and according to them, it is supposed to be 9/32x26 thread. A bit odd, but I hope they got the right thing. Anyway, it explains why it seems to fit almost, but not quite perfectly.

 

[Lonegun1894]

Ok Y'all, got the nipples in from TOTW, and they fit perfectly. Firing about half a dozen caps per nipple, there were no hangfires, so I have my hopes up as far as getting consistent ignition as opposed to misfires. BTW, apparently women folk do not appreciate this being done in the kitchen while they're in the living room-- in case any of you were thinking about doing the same thing. Now to get started on load development...