Was there a equivalent to a Chrony...?

[gizamo]

Just wondering...

Seeing as we strive to keep Traditional Muzzleloading Alive...

And that so many topics abound about Chrony's and Ballistic Software...

Aren't we getting way off Point.....?

 

[bob308]

1740 benjamin robins invented the ballistic pendulum.

it is older then that the greeks and romens worked out calculations for there seage engines the ballista comes to mind.

 

[gizamo]

Now that is fascinating.... Can you give resources?
What a great piece of information!

 

[Skychief]

Just wondering...

Seeing as we strive to keep Traditional Muzzleloading Alive...

And that so many topics abound about Chrony's and Ballistic Software...

Aren't we getting way off Point.....?

How could it be way off point to discuss the ballistics of TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADERS? :idunno:

You may not be as interested in such things as some here, but, that doesn't mean we are getting way off Point. Does it? :haha:

 

[gizamo]

I am guessing with all our modernistc approaches...

Some old fashioned,logical thinking may have also been invoked in the past...

Bear with me... Please ..

Good info, already has been suggested :v

 

[Tumblernotch]

I have pictures of Capt. Benton's Ballistic Pendulum and instructions in its use in my 1862 Ordnance Manual. Works pretty much on the same principle as a chronograph I reckon. More work involved, seems to me.

 

[roundball]

Benjamin Robins invented the first ballistics measuring instrument in 1742, called the Ballistic Pendulum to begin measuring / calculating ballistics associated with black powder muzzleloading projectiles.
A ballistic pendulum is a device for measuring a bullet's momentum, from which velocity and kinetic energy are then calculated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_pendulum

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yep. We used that in Physics 101.

I'm sure every farmhouse and cabin had one. ;-)

I have done similar with shale. If it splatters on a 1" thick slab of shale it's interesting. If it splits the shale into bits it's effective.

 

[gizamo]

So am I to understand the 18th century apparatus was designed to test Mass and Energy?

Are those the primary concerns they had for testing?

 

[Tumblernotch]

Benton's Ballistic Pendulum measured initial velocity. Used mostly for cannon, it was also adapted for use with small arms.

 

[Zonie]

In the 18th century, mass and momentum were two easily measured things.

Trying to measure the velocity of an almost invisible projectile while in flight was not.

Knowing the mass of the projectile and the amount of energy it imparted to the pendulum when it struck it and embedded itself into it made it possible to calculate how fast the projectile would have to be traveling to accomplish the measurable effects.

 

[Rifleman1776]

So am I to understand the 18th century apparatus was designed to test Mass and Energy?

Are those the primary concerns they had for testing?

I will say no. Maybe later today I'll get past the lazies and look in my books for verification. But, I do recall, and am sure, the main use for the pendulum tester was to determine quality of the black powder. Manufacturing consistent batches of powder was a very iffy proposition. So, to determine loads needed with a new batch it was tested. e.g. weaker batch, larger charge
No doubt other uses were found. e.g. energy from varying size balls and loads.

 

[Coot]

So am I to understand the 18th century apparatus was designed to test Mass and Energy?

Are those the primary concerns they had for testing?

I will say no. Maybe later today I'll get past the lazies and look in my books for verification. But, I do recall, and am sure, the main use for the pendulum tester was to determine quality of the black powder. Manufacturing consistent batches of powder was a very iffy proposition. So, to determine loads needed with a new batch it was tested. e.g. weaker batch, larger charge
No doubt other uses were found. e.g. energy from varying size balls and loads.

I think that you are confusing a ballistic pendulum which was used to measure mass & energy (& by calculation, velocity) with an eprouvette which was used to measure the quality of black powder. The pendulum works by firing a round of given weight (generally from an artillery piece or service longarm) against it & recording the movement, the eprouvette (which generally look something like small pistols) by containing a small fixed amount of powder in a chamber with a spring tensioned lid & measuring the distance the lid moved along a scale.

 

[hanshi]

The "powder testers" you are referring to were small, hand held "pistols" with a movable baffle that gave a reading. Reproductions of them are still available.

A ballistic pendulum was a plate placed at a particular distance from the gun - much like modern chronographs - and read the amount of movement with each shot. A simple chart could easily be referenced as to resulting velocity.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The "powder testers" you are referring to were small, hand held "pistols" with a movable baffle that gave a reading. Reproductions of them are still available.

A ballistic pendulum was a plate placed at a particular distance from the gun - much like modern chronographs - and read the amount of movement with each shot. A simple chart could easily be referenced as to resulting velocity.

Yes, I've seen those also. I have a repro that is actually cigarett lighter.
But, the pendulum types worked well for powder testing. The pics I have seen incorporated a rachet affair that stopped the pendulum at it's furthest point for reading.
Seems likely to me they could have been used for more than one purpose.

 

[Dphar]

Just wondering...

Seeing as we strive to keep Traditional Muzzleloading Alive...

And that so many topics abound about Chrony's and Ballistic Software...

Aren't we getting way off Point.....?

In what way?
Do you walk or ride a horse everywhere you go?
Do you not use a computer to converse about MLs?
In the 1840s-50s Forsythe was shooting through leveled pieces of tissue paper that showed the target off their bottom edges. Electric chronos were in use by the 1870s IIRC.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

So am I to understand the 18th century apparatus was designed to test Mass and Energy?

Are those the primary concerns they had for testing?

I will say no. Maybe later today I'll get past the lazies and look in my books for verification. But, I do recall, and am sure, the main use for the pendulum tester was to determine quality of the black powder. Manufacturing consistent batches of powder was a very iffy proposition. So, to determine loads needed with a new batch it was tested. e.g. weaker batch, larger charge
No doubt other uses were found. e.g. energy from varying size balls and loads.

All sorts of things were done.
Issac Newton was trying to make a telescopic sight for example.
Powder was tested, by the military at least at one time with a mortar. How far a give charge threw the ball, or by the little testers mentioned.
Pendulum could be used for powder but was generally used for velocity.

Dan

 

[bnail]

Just wondering...

Seeing as we strive to keep Traditional Muzzleloading Alive...

And that so many topics abound about Chrony's and Ballistic Software...

Aren't we getting way off Point.....?

How could it be way off point to discuss the ballistics of TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADERS? :idunno:

You may not be as interested in such things as some here, but, that doesn't mean we are getting way off Point. Does it? :haha:

putting a chronograph on a muzzleloader is like putting a speedometer on an oxcart :wink:

 

[Coot]

Now that is fascinating.... Can you give resources?
What a great piece of information!

As mentioned in other posts, the ballistic pendulum was invented to measure velocity/energy & not as a powder tester. Eprouvettes (powder test devices) in both small mortar and pistol like forms predated Benjamin Robins ballistic pendulum (1742) by at least 150 years with new models (of eprouvettes) being introduced for another 100 or so years after that. The subject is covered in great detail & with wonderful illustrations in RTW Kempers book: "Eprouvettes" (Royal Armouries 1998). The Hagley Museum (du Pont site in Delaware) has both examples and information & should be a must see for any black powder fan.

 

[gizamo]

Dang,

I was just down in Delaware, in March, visiting family... Wish I had known about the Museum.