Want to put a Vernier rear sight on a Parker Hale Whitworth

[ResearchPress]

Dixie is where I ordered the rear sight base.. I am on the hunt for a variable front sight..

But are you also getting the front sight base that Dixie show on their page? You asked about seeking "an adjustable front sight that has good height." If you get the front sight base, then a sight that has "good height" may be unnecessary - a standard, for example, Pedersoli adjustable foresight may be all you need - the new base giving the additional height.

David

 

[jkelly]

I shoot a Parker Hale Volunteer & a mate in our club shoots a P/H Whitworth (both 1978 stamped).
Initially we both fitted Pedersoli tang base extensions and mounted our vernier on them. The tang bases come with a longer tang screw but you can be trapped as later Pedersoli screws are a different pitch to P/H , so care is needed to match.
The tang bases also require a wood thread screw to help secure it to your stock.

Our experiences with these base has not been good as we were not able to lower the vernier staff sufficiently to zero at 100 m. & this included us using elevated globe foresight.
Another problem surfaced when needing to remove the barrel - the vernier sight as well as the tang base need to be independently removed which becomes a real pain.

After discussions with Lee Shaver I have fitted one of his soule sights with wood screws directly on to the stock.
My mate followed suit and fitted a different pedersoli directly to his Whitworh stock.

Not only has this helped with cleaning but we both experience marked increase in accuracy and reduction of group sizes. The sight sit 'lower' which has corrected slighting issues at closer ranges.

 

[Cannonman1]

I shoot a Parker Hale Volunteer & a mate in our club shoots a P/H Whitworth (both 1978 stamped).
Initially we both fitted Pedersoli tang base extensions and mounted our vernier on them. The tang bases come with a longer tang screw but you can be trapped as later Pedersoli screws are a different pitch to P/H , so care is needed to match.
The tang bases also require a wood thread screw to help secure it to your stock.

Our experiences with these base has not been good as we were not able to lower the vernier staff sufficiently to zero at 100 m. & this included us using elevated globe foresight.
Another problem surfaced when needing to remove the barrel - the vernier sight as well as the tang base need to be independently removed which becomes a real pain.

After discussions with Lee Shaver I have fitted one of his soule sights with wood screws directly on to the stock.
My mate followed suit and fitted a different pedersoli directly to his Whitworh stock.

Not only has this helped with cleaning but we both experience marked increase in accuracy and reduction of group sizes. The sight sit 'lower' which has corrected slighting issues at closer ranges.

Any special considerations when attaching the sight directly to the stock?? Did you inlet the base of the sight or just screw it in.. Thanks in advance for any suggestions here !!

 

[Stantheman86]

Any special considerations when attaching the sight directly to the stock?? Did you inlet the base of the sight or just screw it in.. Thanks in advance for any suggestions here !!

I bought an old tang sight , a Lyman style folding rear "universal" sight and screwed it into the wrist of my Armi Sport CS Richmond after finding the best spot for it. It works well, it's just as stable as any tang sight.

 

[jkelly]

Any special considerations when attaching the sight directly to the stock?? Did you inlet the base of the sight or just screw it in.. Thanks in advance for any suggestions here !!

The main thing that really solved the problems was when I spoke with Lee Shaver and advised him of what I wanted to achieve and my rifle details.
Lee was able to recommend the correct sight base for the rifle and supply the correct wood screws to match.
The sight is screwed directly on to the stock and also makes use of the hole that I had to drill to originally fit the Pedersoli tang extension so only one extra hole had to be drilled - no inletting required at all as his sight base matched the stock contours of the Parker Hale perfectly. The Pedersoli tang extension does not suitably follow the contour of the Parker Hale so screw tensions cannot be accurately be matched.
This is what I believe was the main factor initially affecting our accuracy.

 

[ResearchPress]

Soule type sights are used happily and successfully by many on military target rifles such as the Whitworth and Volunteer models. If period correct / spirit of the original is a factor, keep in mind that they post-date the rifles by 25 years. J.W. Soule patented his sight in the US in 1889 - so well into the breech loading era and unlikely ever to have been used on a British rifle from the 1860s.

David

 

[DuncNZ]

If you want to replace the rear sight on any Parker Hale ml rifle , not carbine , with a windage adjustable long range sight the Sutherland Sight made for early Lee Metfords or Lee Enfield mk 1 and maybe the Ross rifle , fit right in the base on the barrel . They can be hard to find. Google it .

 

[Cannonman1]

The main thing that really solved the problems was when I spoke with Lee Shaver and advised him of what I wanted to achieve and my rifle details.
Lee was able to recommend the correct sight base for the rifle and supply the correct wood screws to match.
The sight is screwed directly on to the stock and also makes use of the hole that I had to drill to originally fit the Pedersoli tang extension so only one extra hole had to be drilled - no inletting required at all as his sight base matched the stock contours of the Parker Hale perfectly. The Pedersoli tang extension does not suitably follow the contour of the Parker Hale so screw tensions cannot be accurately be matched.
This is what I believe was the main factor initially affecting our accuracy.

What type of screws did Lee Shaver supply? I assume these are not your typical wood screw..

 

[jkelly]

I'm a total dunce when you start talking about thread sizes, pitch etc but the screws provided were matched to suit the site base - the wood thread may be a bit coarser than your typical hardware store screw but that's where my knowledge is limited.
I have also purchased wood screws from Pedersol to match their sight bases, so I would imagine that most sight manufacturers would also stock them.
I have been told that my use of a Soule sight is not period correct, however as I shoot in a remote area of Australia I doubt if I will ever be banned from an event for this breach - notwithstanding I would have loved the opportunity to experience an historical range such as Bisley.this

 

[user 55589]

Irrespective of what you have on your Sharps - the discussion is about the Pedersoli sight base for their Whitworth rifle.

See Dixie Gun Works for more information - "Made by Pedersoli for use on the Pedersoli and Navy Arms Whitworth and Volunteer rifles. The rear sight mount is color casehardened steel and comes with a longer replacement tang screw to fit the mentioned guns and one wood screw to attach the base to the stock."

David

The Pedersoli screw is metric and the Parker-Hale screws are British (whitworth thread). not sure of the actual sizes.
Bud

 

[Cannonman1]

I'm a total dunce when you start talking about thread sizes, pitch etc but the screws provided were matched to suit the site base - the wood thread may be a bit coarser than your typical hardware store screw but that's where my knowledge is limited.
I have also purchased wood screws from Pedersol to match their sight bases, so I would imagine that most sight manufacturers would also stock them.
I have been told that my use of a Soule sight is not period correct, however as I shoot in a remote area of Australia I doubt if I will ever be banned from an event for this breach - notwithstanding I would have loved the opportunity to experience an historical range such as Bisley.this

I have decided to go with the Stover long range sight and work with the non traditional as well. I will not be entering any organized competition and most of my competition will be against myself and my previous best score. I just want to see how good I can make her shoot.
I have 3 rounds I will be experimenting with ... A hex bullet, a cylindrical sized down .457 and the traditional British Whitworth paper patch
Not totally set on the front sight but will start with my Lyman.. and go from there. I will be setting the rear sight on wood as that appears pretty stable.
Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion .. I have learned a lot from your comments..
Tipping my hat

 

[user 55589]

I guess I should have been clearer. I meant to say its the tang screw (machine thread) that is metric on the Pedersoli tang screws. The tang screws on the Parker-Hale rifles are british whitworth thread, very different. Be careful.
Bud

 

[Stantheman86]

Soule type sights are used happily and successfully by many on military target rifles such as the Whitworth and Volunteer models. If period correct / spirit of the original is a factor, keep in mind that they post-date the rifles by 25 years. J.W. Soule patented his sight in the US in 1889 - so well into the breech loading era and unlikely ever to have been used on a British rifle from the 1860s.

David

I know TV isn't always historically correct , but the British series "Ripper Street" had an episode where a stagecoach robber used a Whitworth rifle. They note that the hexagonal bullet recovered is from a Whitworth, and that is an older muzzleloading rifle and very distinctive, and "ammunition for this cannot be found at your typical Musket shop"

They go to a rifle club outside London to investigate , and gentleman in suits are shown using a mix of muzzleloading target rifles and breechloaders, in the early 1890's. It may be "historically possible" that a Soule was used on some muzzleloading target rifles that were still used into the 1890's and later.

 

[ResearchPress]

It may be "historically possible" that a Soule was used on some muzzleloading target rifles that were still used into the 1890's and later.

Yes, as I said, the Soule sight is “unlikely” to have been used. I don’t know the TV series you refer to, nor the context of the ‘shooting club’, but have not come across use of muzzle-loaders that late in NRA(UK) events. How soon after the 1889 patent the Soule sight was into production, let alone reached British shores (if at all) I don’t know. I’ve never seen an original Soule sight, just a couple of pictures.

The full stocked Whitworth military target rifles faded from production in the the early 1860s, in favour of the half-stocked match rifles. By the late 1860s Whitworth rifles were disappearing from rifle competition in favour of shallow grooved rifles such as Gibbs-Metford and Rigby.

MLAIC Rules for Long Range International World Championships permit sights up to 1899 design. My comments are’t about compliance with rules - just providing contextual information on a traditional muzzle loading forum, where some may wish to use sights of the same era as their rifle.

David

 

[Cannonman1]

If you plan on installing a period correct elevation only rearsight, you will need a foresight adjustable for windage. Not sure how you plan on accounting for windage adjustment with the Lyman sight illustrated, other than by aiming off. If you need that tall a foresight, then consider fitting a spirit level - this will aid in eliminating sighting errors caused by variable cant.

David

I just took my original Whitworth out (Actually a William Blanch military stocked gun built in early 60's with a Whitworth stamped barrel).. I had never noticed that the vernier sight base is adjustable!! The base its dovetailed and has a fine adjustment screw that uses a very fine key. The fitting is so close that I hadn't seen it.. Funny what one can miss on the first pass.. LOL

 

[TFoley]

Excellent point.. I will need to ponder that. May need to have windage adjustment in the tang after all. Good point about the spirit level also.
Can you suggest a source for an adjustable front sight that has good height??

Montana Vintage Arms in USA.

 

[ResearchPress]

I just took my original Whitworth out (Actually a William Blanch military stocked gun built in early 60's with a Whitworth stamped barrel).. I had never noticed that the vernier sight base is adjustable!! The base its dovetailed and has a fine adjustment screw that uses a very fine key. The fitting is so close that I hadn't seen it.. Funny what one can miss on the first pass.. LOL

Yes several makers had rearsight windage adjustment, some using keys, although the majority were elevation only rearsights. The most notable of the windage adjustable type is the short lived Goodwin sight - although conceived as an orthoptic device to be used in conjunction with the foresight and barrel sight. Viscount Bury’s ‘Manual of Rifling and Rifle Sights’ (1864) is a useful reference.

Interested in your Whitworth - always collecting data on originals, including those made under licence. Keen to know if the barrel includes a Whitworth serial number. You can contact me by direct message or via my research page - Hex Bore, if happy to share data / photos.

David

 

[underhammer]

Lee Shaver makes a premium tang sights for muzzleloaders 10x the quality of a pedersoli

 

[Cannonman1]

Lee Shaver makes a premium tang sights for muzzleloaders 10x the quality of a pedersoli

Just ordered one from Lee.. Long Range higher quality muzzleloading sight. I can say that as fine a sight as Lee makes it was pure pleasure to deal with this man. He pulled a gun out that matched mine and over the phone recommended the sight base he would use by trying a couple right there..,He is hand finishing some screws for me to use to blend with the base. Truly old school quality service. Bravo !!

 

[Bad Karma]

Just ordered one from Lee.. Long Range higher quality muzzleloading sight. I can say that as fine a sight as Lee makes it was pure pleasure to deal with this man. He pulled a gun out that matched mine and over the phone recommended the sight base he would use by trying a couple right there..,He is hand finishing some screws for me to use to blend with the base. Truly old school quality service. Bravo !!

You’re right about all of it. He loves what he does and it shows in the quality of the products and service.