underhammer

[watopeka]

Need info
Challenger
Hopkins & Allen improve
Mt Vernon NY
.45 cal 32 inch clean barrel
Not sure if the sights are the original

fun to know how good they shoot thanks guy's

 

[Short Arm]

My underhammer shoot great,50cal H/A

 

[Zonie]

The Heritage Model shows up in "BLACK POWDER GUIDE", Major George Nonte, copyright 1969.

"HERITAGE MODEL: Top of the (Numrich) H & A underhammer gun line, fitted with walnut fore-end and brass butplate and patch box. Barrel is 15/16" across the flats. 32" long, available in .36 or .45 caliber, uniform or gain twist rifling. Hooded aperture front sight, elevator leaf rear, and long-range aperture tang sight. Weight 8 1/4 lbs. in .36 caliber, 8 lbs. in .45."

Most (if not all) Numrich "H&A" underhammer rifles use a .245-32 threaded nipple although if the nipple hole in the barrel has a bit of wear on it a 1/4-32 threaded nipple can be used.

A M6 x .75mm nipple will often screw into the nipple hole because although the thread is actually a 34 thread/inch the undersized 6mm (.236) diameter body will allow for the thread pitch error. DO NOT USE THESE M6 x .75mm NIPPLES IN YOUR GUN. THEY MAY BLOW OUT WHEN THE GUN IF FIRED.

On another issue, the Firearms Research Forum area is for original guns made prior to 1865 so I am moving it to the Percussion Forum.

 

[watopeka]

Short Arm,
are your sights original if so could you send me pictures so i could shop around
Thanks

 

[hanshi]

I have one just like yours that I bought back in the mid 1960s. Fantastic rifle and accurate as all get-out. Mine has been retired for a while, now, as it has been shot and been taken through the woods so much it is basically worn out. I may work on it in the future and see if I can resurrect it. The barrel remains a tackdriver.

 

[watopeka]

hanshi there is an allen screw under the trigger . I took it appart is the only use to hold the spring or it's an adjustment for the trigger, if so i may have i piece missing ?

 

I now have anumber of these and have had others in the past. The allen screw you show must be an add on by someone as I have never seen it before. I am guessing from the location that it is a trigger adjustment and rests on the hammer just behind the full cock notch. It would adjust the depth that the trigger falls into that notch.
Mark

 

[hanshi]

I've never seen one with an allen screw either. I think my spring/tg is weak after years of firing. The full cock and the half cock notch are worn and not trustworthy.

 

[hawkeye2]

I suspect that your rifle was assembled from parts purchased from Numrich after production of H&As was dscontinued. There were a number of people who assembled these rifles for sale and I have a friend who purchased one in the late 70s with no H&A markings but it has a maker's name and address in Maine. I don't believe this one is a Numrich production piece based on the patchbox which doesn't look like anything Numrich used, the groved top flat on the barrel, the setscrew in the trigger, and the markings. Numrich H&As were marked W Hurley, NY not Mt. Vernon though the towns are close. I don't recall ever seeing a H&A challenger and the Heratige models I remember had no patchbox at all and no scroll behind the trigger guard. I believe the assembler or manufacturer, if you will, made the aforementioned changes and called it the "Hopkins & Allen improved".

The Numrich barrel should be a tackdriver if there is any rifleing left at all but the bores do run undersize and you may need a .43 dia. ball. Parts are avaliable from Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply, Inc.:
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/underhammer.shtml

 

Hawkey,
Numrich did produce a Heritage model and also grooved the top flat on some models. They used a cap box but you are right, this doesn't look like what they used.
Mark

 

[Short Arm]

Watapeka, here is my underhammer,the sight is different

 

[watopeka]

i would need a picture of a plug that the action has the allen screws , i may be able to add the allen screws instead of the pin and make a new plug
thanks guy's

 

[watopeka]

Also is it possible to have a good picture of the sights with the hight of the front one, i may of found a back sight , push come to shove a can make the front

 

The newer style breach plug is just a breach plug with a straight "round" projection that fits into the action. You can use the existing plug for the extension diameter and length. Be sure to bevel the bottom of the beach plug, as on the original, so that the hammer clears it. If you are going to try to use set screws to seat the barrel, you will have to reuse the existing drift pin holes by drilling them straight through and tapping them, then drilling and tapping a third hole in the top of the action. The two will obviously be considerably larger than the new hole. There are lots of better sights than what came on these rifles. I doubt if there are many originals still being used.
Mark

 

[watopeka]

would you consider welding those holes. Just a thougt. Is the plug a slide fit ? I find mine has a play. But when i place the pin everything is tight.

 

[hanshi]

The Heritage model was their "top of the line" back when I bought mine circa 1966-67. I still have their old catalog and the Heritage is the only one with finger hold and patchbox. The patchbox on the rifle in question is definitely not from the earlier era nor does it match up with the other parts of the gun. It looks almost just like a true "Heritage" but is obviously built using mixed parts. That doesn't keep it from being a fine rifle, though.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I now have anumber of these and have had others in the past. The allen screw you show must be an add on by someone as I have never seen it before. I am guessing from the location that it is a trigger adjustment and rests on the hammer just behind the full cock notch. It would adjust the depth that the trigger falls into that notch.
Mark

I used to sell these from my shop in Indiana and my family shot the undy-hammers from H&A. The addition of the screw is fairly common for adjustment or trigger stop. The beauty of these guns is their simplicity allowing the owner to customize.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The Heritage model was their "top of the line" back when I bought mine circa 1966-67. I still have their old catalog and the Heritage is the only one with finger hold and patchbox. The patchbox on the rifle in question is definitely not from the earlier era nor does it match up with the other parts of the gun. It looks almost just like a true "Heritage" but is obviously built using mixed parts. That doesn't keep it from being a fine rifle, though.

Probably just my failing memory, but I don't recall the Heritage model.
The one picture above is different than the H&As I'm familiar with. The oldies were round breech assemblies, not flat as shown. The oldies nipple was perpendicular to the barrel, not angled as shown.
Dunno about the models like this one shown, but the oldies did have a different type nipple. A friend got some permanent tattoos on his wrist recently when the nipple (wrong kind) blew out while he was shooting. This is a serious safety factory for people acquiring an old H&A underhammer.

 

[watopeka]

rifleman
did you ever keep a booklet that came with these guns and were the plugs slides to the action is it a slide fit or there is some play.

 

[Rifleman1776]

rifleman
did you ever keep a booklet that came with these guns and were the plugs slides to the action is it a slide fit or there is some play.

No booklet. Do you mean the retaining pins? They are tapered. Slide in, give a rap with a wood mallet and they'll stay.