Uberti Hawken, upgrades and modifications?

[anj4de]

Hello all


I have done it...a quick shot so to say. I have found a used but very good looking Uberti Hawken at a German gun dealer's web page and pressed the BIN button on it...I am now waiting for delivery.
The Uberti Hawken (Santa Fe...in the US) is not new to me, I had one as my second BP rifle in the late 80ties but sold it on to fund a musket I needed for re-enacting back then. Money was in short supply when I was in my early 20ties ;-)...
Back then I took the Hawken apart, reshaped the area around the look and trimmed the fore stock a bit slimmer. I re-stained the wood rather dark, browned all steel parts with Laurel Mountain Forge "Barrel Brown & Degreaser " which worked really well and decorated the stock with some brass tacks...Without access to a thing like the www I thought it turned out rather well. I sold it on to fund my first 1853 Enfield...

Now, 25 years later, I bought another one. It also dates into the 80ties and is one of those .53cal ones. The main reason I bought it is to increase my skills with metal and wood in order to be able, mid term, to build a complete rifle at least from a kit like TOW offers them.
What I have seen and read about Hawkens here and in other forums the Uberti one is not bad but far from perfect. So here are a couple of things I plan...and I would like to ask you for feedback so I do not produce rubbish. I am not sensible...so please be honest!
1. Refine the wood around the lock and on the opposite side to come a lot closer to the lock.
2. Make the front part of the stock a little slimmer
3. Change the angle or install and alternative butt plate so that the heel hits the ground first and not the tow. (? Red that somewhere about original Hawkens)
4. Remove all Italian markings and numbers from the barrel with the exception of the proof marks (German law)
5. Re-brown the barrel
6. Lock should be case hardened but the previous owner has it blued...in black! So shall I make it brown?
7. Nose cap...it's now "German silver", should it be iron or even pewter?
8. Trigger guard...it it enough to trim the scroll back or shall I install a replacement?
9. Trigger...I saw that most originals have a straight front one, I guess this can be replicated on the Uberti without too much head ache?
10.when finishing the lock in brown, shall I brown all iron parts?

Please add what ever else could/should be done or what should be left off. I am absolutely open to constructive criticism.

thanks a lot
Uwe

 

[cynthialee]

Sounds like you already have a solid idea of what you are looking to do.

I think once you get it done:
hotoSmile:

 

[Wayne R Scott]

Uwe,

Here is my opinion for free!

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No save $ for Kit gun
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Brown Lock
7. Pour a Pewter End cap
8. Trim existing Scroll
9. Leave as is save $ for Kit gun
10. Brown all metal

Now you have an opinion from some one on the internet

I basically did the same thing as you 30 years ago with a Sharon Hawken Kit. I later replaced the .54 cal barrel with a .50 cal. More comfortable and cheaper for me to shoot.

 

[will5a1]

I have one on the way also, and I had also thought about trying to reduce and reshape the amount of wood around the lockplate, but I don't yet know enough about the shape of originals to proceed. Your well thought out list gives me more to consider.

Is your hammer color casehardened or bright blued?

 

[anj4de]

Here are some pictures of the rifle as it looks now...I do not have it yet, it's still in the mail somewhere...

What it looks like now the stock has been covered with clear coat and the lock and barrel look black. The privious owner I was told did competition shooting with it so maybe it was modified for his needs...

thanks
Uwe

 

[bpd303]

It looks very nice as is. About the only thing I would do is change out the barrel wedge escutcheons to steel blackened to match the barrel and a horn nose cap would look good. I would have to have it in hand to make a decision about the stock finish, maybe buff it with 0000 steel wool & wax it.

 

[anj4de]

Hi

Yes, the rifle looks ok as it is...if I was only after a shooter for the range. I bought this one actually because I like Hawkens and also since I knew it would give me the canvas to try out certain things that I will need later on a more expensive "custom build" project. I am looking forward to working on this one...the one thing I have missed a bit while collecting and shooting muskets, there is no room for artistical things on militray guns...

cheers
Uwe

PS: Just red a lot about the GRRW Hawkens...one of those would be nice to have as well.

 

[Billnpatti]

If I understand correctly, everything that you propose to do is make cosmetic changes. You do not intend to replace any of the major parts. This is to be a project for you to learn many of the crafts that you will need when you build your future kit gun. That being the case, and given the market in which you will be selling your finished project, I'd say that all that you propose to do is a good idea. Your finished remake of your Hawken will look nice and should possibly enable you to make a profit on it when you sell it.

I might encourage you to stain your stock when you refinish it using aqua fortis because it would be such a nice stain to use on your kit gun. Learn on the present gun and then apply what you have learned when you build the kit. For a finish on this gun stock, I suggent a mixture of 50% varnish and 50% mineral spirits. This will give you a good wiping varnish. You apply it by dipping your finger tips in the varnish mixture and wiping it on our stock and then using the heel of your hand to thoroughly rub it into the surface until if starts to feel dry. Work in small areas until you have completely covered your stock with a very light, well rubbed in coat of varnish. Hang it to dry over night. The next day, lightly buff the surface with 0000 steel wool until you have just removed the shine. Completely remove all dust and steel wool bits and wipe the stock with a clean rag. Then repeat the process until you have applied 8 to 10 coats of hand rubbed varnish. Allow this last coat to cure for about a month to be sure that it is thoroughly dried and cured. Then use some 0000 steel wool to buff the surface to a pleasant soft luster. Thoroughly clean the stock and apply a coat of a good wax and buff again. You will end up with a gorgeous stock. Sure, this method is very time consuming but, after all, this is a learning project, not something that you are rushing through just to get it finished. Take you time and learn how to properly finish a stock.

The barrel will look very nice with a rust brown finish. I don't know what browning reagents you have available so I can't help you much there. I will tell you that you should not polish your barrel before browning it. A polished barrel will not take a browning reagent evenly and you will quite possibly end up with a splotchy finish. When you are preparing your barrel for browning, do not polish it with any paper finer than about 220 grit. I don't know if you use the same grading for your sand paper as is used here in the U.S. but just use the same grade that cabinet makers use for their last sanding. The barrel will then have a surface that a browning reagent can work on relatively evenly. It will be much like finishing your stock in that it takes time and patience and attention to detail but the finished product will be worth it.

I might consider removing the bluing from the lock and polishing it up and leaving it "in the white", that is, unfinished. Many guns did not have the lock blued or browned but just left unfinished. Before browning it, look it and see if it looks good with no finish in it.

 

[Billnpatti]

I forgot to address the issue of modification of the trigger guard. There were many makers of the half stock, heavy barreled and large bore rifles. The Hawken shop was only one of these makers. Each maker had his own design that made it different from other makers of the same style of rifle. The trigger guard is one of these signature items. Different makers had different trigger guards. If you alter the trigger guard such that it does not match the design of the rest of the rifle, it will not look right. As Davy Crockett said "Be sure you're right and then go ahead."

 

[anj4de]

Hi...

Thanks for the tips on the wood finish. I am planning something along those lines if I can get the current finish off to a degree that only plain wood is left. I have no clue what is on there right now...so we will have to wait and see.
On the trigger guard, I do not want to change the style, only reduce the scoll on the rear end a bit to come closer to the typical S.Hawken design. By looking at pictures I meanwhile found out that the Uberti gun follows the line of a late S.Hawken much more then those of an earlier J&S Hawken. Once finished I do not plan to sell it, I always wanted to have a Hawken again and my plans for a custom built gun go more towards a Southern Long Rifle, so a second Hawken is not planned right now.

thanks
Uwe

 

[anj4de]

Hello there

Quick question...
In this thread... http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24671.msg236505#msg236505 ...there is a picture of a S.Hawken that was captured by the Nez Prez Indians and it has that "early?" two piece nose cap that is a bit longer and straight. I kind of like that look. It this available as a repro? I might want to put it on the Uberti once it arrives...

thanks
Uwe

 

[anj4de]

Hello again

My "Hawken" has finally arrived. It's a "Hege Uberti" version that is stamped as such and was sold via hege in Germany in the last millenium. Mine was built in 1982 and has Italin proof marks AI for that year. The rifle is in very good shape for it's age, it was obviously well cared for. The barrel is clean, no rust, just oil in there. The stock was treated with glossy varnish and all metal parts are brown...even though the brown is a bit worn in places already. I think this was put on afterwards which is a pity since it covers the color case hardening that the iron parts once had. A first deatiled inspection showed that there is definitely room for improvement. Here are some pictures I took this afternoon...

I will now start creating a list of changes I want to apply to the rifle and later share with you. One thing I found out already, the stock geometry seem to be right, when the barrel is vertical the heel of the stock touches the ground first.

thanks
Uwe

 

[Andyd]

Great job with the photos. Looks like a clean rifle.

 

[BrownBear]

That's a real score! Well done.

I'd be tempted to carefully refinish the stock, but I'd probably leave the metal finish alone. I think you'll be really pleased after doing nothing more than stripping off the heavy lacquer and applying a good rubbed oil finish.

 

[brubincam]

"case hardening" I don't need no stinking "case hardening"

 

[George T.]

Thanks for posting those great pictures.

Geo. T.

 

[anj4de]

Hello everybody

I have those pictures in much larger as well, I did size them down though since some forums do not allow larger sizes even if hosted on an external server, photobucket in this case. The pictures were taken on my eating table with my cell phone!

Back to the Hawken...I have spent the last 4 weeks reseraching the avialble sources on the web extensively and I believe this Uberti can be turned into an even nicer gun then what it already is. It follows a late S.Hawken design, the cast butt plate, front cap and trigger guard all point to a late Hawken. I will not touch the barrel and sights since I was told the previous owner was a "master" shootist and won many prices with it. The stock has some places where you can see that all the sanding was done with a machine rather then by hand. The lock area is much too big and so is the opposite side. The forearm is getting bigger/wider towards the first rammer timble which btw is nicely made from sheet metal and not cast! One thing that bugs me a bit is the very long pull of the gun...or shall I better say my short arms? When I shoulder the gun and put my right hand comfortably where it should be I can only barely reach the trigger and the other three fingers of my hand are resting over the scroll of the trigger guard. I think that 1" less would be a lot better. I have compared this with my original 1861 Springfield and the stock on the Hawken seems to be around an inch longer. Not sure if I should adjust that now after the rifle was build? BTW, between which points is the pull being measured, please?
The barrel is the already mentioned cal.53 one and the rifle came with a Lyman bullet mold in cal.526, there were some bullets in the box and those fit exactly between the lands of the barrel...not sure how this will go with a patch yet.

thanks
Uwe

 

[will5a1]

Uwe,

My rifle, a Jedediah Smith Comm. (#104) came in and is very similiar to yours, I will try to post some photos but have no skill with a camera. The rifle came with two barrels, the barrel mounted on the rifle has less wear to the browning, and is numbered 536 (the tang and stock are also numbered 536) with a date of code AE for 1979. Both barrels are stamped Western Arms Co, the spare barrel has what I believe to be an aftermarket rear sight that is adjustable for elevation and a brass bead front sight. The spare is numbered 262, the spare is also browned but with a smoother finish. The lockplate is browned but the hammer is color case hardened. Both barrels are marked .54 but are actually .530, and neither barrel has any crown to the muzzle, at least not any that I can see.

 

[will5a1]

One more -



The rifle came out of New Mexico, the fellow who owned it has passed on and his widow offered it for sale, nothing else came with it but the odd spare barrel - wish I knew why he bought the spare, and it looks like he actually used the spare more based on the wear to it. I have some .520 balls on had a friend gave me and some .526 on order, and will order a mold when I determine which size ball it shoots best with. For now I think I will leave it as is, but I am tempted to send the spare barrel off for a rebore to a true .54, or maybe .56?

A local guy that has one he bought in the early '80's tells me he has the original booklet that came with his rifle, he is supposed to make me a copy. I hope to be able to shoot it next week.

 

[BrownBear]

One thing that bugs me a bit is the very long pull of the gun...or shall I better say my short arms? When I shoulder the gun and put my right hand comfortably where it should be I can only barely reach the trigger and the other three fingers of my hand are resting over the scroll of the trigger guard. I think that 1" less would be a lot better. I have compared this with my original 1861 Springfield and the stock on the Hawken seems to be around an inch longer. Not sure if I should adjust that now after the rifle was build?

Have you tried moving the butt out onto your arm, as hooked butts were intended to be shot? That can easily take up an inch of pull with no hacking, as it meanwhile improves shooting comfort.