Traditions Trapper (and similar) shooters

[amcmullen]

I bought a Traditions Trapper a few months back and it is really fun to shoot. However, I am having a heck of a time finding a load that it will shoot with reasonable accuracy.

The best group that I could get today at the range was about 4" at 25 yds. Most groups were more like 8-10". I used a bench to support the gun so I had a really good rest and was able to get a really good sight picture.

So I guess I am asking what is realistic expectation of accuracy? I feel like with as good as a rest as I use I should be able to get a 2" group. Is this unrealistic?

The gun had a 1:20 twist and the best group was with 45 grains of FFFg and Hornady PA Conicals. The worst group was with a .490 PRB with .018 patch 40 grains of powder. I also used REAL bullets with 40 and 45 grains of powder. The gun definitely tightened up with 5 grains more powder. Last time I shot I used 25-35 grains of powder and the groups were horrific.

What loads are you all shooting? Any tips that you have found helpful?

Thanks for any advice

 

[coloradoclyde]

I have a traditions Kentucky that will clover leaf at 50 yards...But then I'm no slouch with a handgun...Many people struggle with the short sight radius of a handgun.

I shoot 50 grains of 3ff and a 240 grain cast Elmer Keith style semi-wadcutter designed for .44 mag The other component is unmentionable. :grin:

P.S. Don't tell my patch and ball buddies... :haha:

 

[amcmullen]

I have a traditions Kentucky that will clover leaf at 50 yards...But then I'm no slouch with a handgun...Many people struggle with the short sight radius of a handgun.

I shoot 50 grains of 3ff and a 240 grain cast Elmer Keith style semi-wadcutter designed for .44 mag The other component is unmentionable. :grin:

P.S. Don't tell my patch and ball buddies... :haha:

That just ain't right!

With my rest and the way I am capable of shooting I am sure I just need to find the right combination. Every shot feels good. Follow through, sight alignment, sight picture. It's really frustrating when the shot is high left, then the next is low right...wth!?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Some handguns don't like to be shot from the bench.....

I do much better off hand with a handgun...

Keep practicing and trying different combinations....you'll find one that works...

 

[robert bw]

With my rest and the way I am capable of shooting I am sure I just need to find the right combination. Every shot feels good. Follow through, sight alignment, sight picture. It's really frustrating when the shot is high left, then the next is low right...wth!? [/quote]

I feel your pain I shoot a cap n ball 44(Remington type)some days are better than others on the range, makes you wonder if its you or the gun(in my case its almost allways certainly me)

Dadgum handguns seem as finickey as machinery and women folk!

 

[amcmullen]

Some handguns don't like to be shot from the bench.....

I do much better off hand with a handgun...

Keep practicing and trying different combinations....you'll find one that works...

That's probably the advise I need to hear, however, that's not the advise I want to hear... I get clover leafs too...they are just a lot bigger than others. 50 grains huh? you use a wad?

Guess I will be back at it Friday.

 

[Zonie]

If your actually resting the pistol on the bench or a block, that might be part of the problem.

Try resting your elbows on the bench and using your free hand to support your grip hand. Then, squeeze the trigger slowly without trying to predict when the gun will fire.

You might also try using a .010 or .012 thick patch.

Some pistols don't like tight patch/ball combinations like a rifle uses and they shoot better with the lighter weight patch.

When shooting a patched roundball, many pistols really like light powder loads. Don't give up on them until you have tried a .010 patch with the .490 diameter ball. You might be surprised.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Zonie is right about a lot of things....

Many handguns do like lighter loads.... My .45 Kentucky likes 25 grains and a thin patch...

Also, if your hands touch the bench...the muscles in your hand can move the gun as you pull the trigger.. Because as the muscle flexes it gets bigger....and pushes away from the object it is touching. Some people have this problem simply by hanging onto the gun itself. As they pull the trigger the muscle in their hand will torque the gun in their hand without them noticing.

My .50 cal pistol load is for deer hunting.

 

[amcmullen]

If your actually resting the pistol on the bench or a block, that might be part of the problem.

Try resting your elbows on the bench and using your free hand to support your grip hand. Then, squeeze the trigger slowly without trying to predict when the gun will fire.

You might also try using a .010 or .012 thick patch.

Some pistols don't like tight patch/ball combinations like a rifle uses and they shoot better with the lighter weight patch.

When shooting a patched roundball, many pistols really like light powder loads. Don't give up on them until you have tried a .010 patch with the .490 diameter ball. You might be surprised.

Hmm, Okay. I think I need to spend a lot more time shooting and experimenting . I've been trying to ram the tightest combination down the muzzle and getting the best support. Seems I may need to rethink my strategy.

 

[amcmullen]

Zonie is right about a lot of things....

Many handguns do like lighter loads.... My .45 Kentucky likes 25 grains and a thin patch...

Also, if your hands touch the bench...the muscles in your hand can move the gun as you pull the trigger.. Because as the muscle flexes it gets bigger....and pushes away from the object it is touching. Some people have this problem simply by hanging onto the gun itself. As they pull the trigger the muscle in their hand will torque the gun in their hand without them noticing.

My .50 cal pistol load is for deer hunting.

Taking a step back most of my problems are probably self inflicted. I am probably muscling the gun more than I realize.

 

[amcmullen]

I shoot 50 grains of 3ff and a 240 grain cast Elmer Keith style semi-wadcutter designed for .44 mag The other component is unmentionable. :grin:

I'm dense, thought you had some secret sauce type stuff. I follow you now

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yep!...The unmentionable is a sabot....Not sure why we can't talk about them....Henri-Gustave Delvigne invented the wooden cup sabot in the early 1800's :haha:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

50 grains of 3f under a 240 grain bullet in a traditions kentucky, probably exceeds the pressures the gun is designed for. Spanish proof loads are kind of light compared to other countries. (Except the USA, where no proof is required)

 

[coloradoclyde]

Recommended max load for .50 caliber is 45 grains of 3f with a round ball Per Traditions manual...
However they also say this;

Conical Projectiles Conical projectiles must be loaded without patches. If they are not purchased prelubricated, they must be greased with Traditionsâ„¢ WonderLube or any commercial black powder bullet lube. The most accurate load for a conical projectile is usually 5 to 10 grains above those for round balls. Maximum powder loads* for these projectiles in each caliber are identical to those noted above for round balls. Conical projectiles must fit tightly. {See Recommended Loads):

So, Yes! I'm over by 5 grains... :idunno:

 

[Grimord]

In my traditions trapper percussion gun I use a 495 ball with .010 patch and 30 grains of 3f. I get 2-2.5 inch groups at 50 yds and close to 1" groups at 25yds. With the .490 ball and .015 patch my groups are alittle bigger. I had to lap the bore with JB bore paste to smooth out the rough grooves in the barrel. It settled down nicely after that.

 

[Patocazador]

If all else fails, carefully check your tang screw while shooting a string. If it loosens at all, bed your tang and the rear of the barrel with epoxy or Accra-glas.

(This only applies if the Traditions pistol is similar to a T/C Patriot as I do not own a Traditions Trapper.)

 

[amcmullen]

In my traditions trapper percussion gun I use a 495 ball with .010 patch and 30 grains of 3f. I get 2-2.5 inch groups at 50 yds and close to 1" groups at 25yds. With the .490 ball and .015 patch my groups are alittle bigger. I had to lap the bore with JB bore paste to smooth out the rough grooves in the barrel. It settled down nicely after that.

The bore did come a little rough. Next time I'm at the range I'll give everyones suggestions a try. I have to tag along with you and clyde, you guys seem to have the pistol shooting down.

 

[amcmullen]

If all else fails, carefully check your tang screw while shooting a string. If it loosens at all, be7d your tang and the rear of the barrel with epoxy or Accra-glas.

(This only applies if the Traditions pistol is similar to a T/C Patriot as I do not own a Traditions Trapper.)

The trapper has a hooked breech and wedge to hold the barrel in place.it seams nice and tight.

 

[amcmullen]

50 grains of 3f under a 240 grain bullet in a traditions kentucky, probably exceeds the pressures the gun is designed for. Spanish proof loads are kind of light compared to other countries. (Except the USA, where no proof is required)

I don'tunderstand why the max load for the pistol is 45 grains. The barrel is the same as a full size 50 just shorter with a faster twist. I'm assuming it's the stock and other components that limit the powder charge? :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

IMO, one reason to limit the powder charge to 45 grains is reduces the amount of wasted powder.

Using the values Lyman published in their BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL , 2nd ed. here's the data they found when shooting a single shot pistol with a .50 caliber barrel, 1:30 twist, loading with GOEX 3Fg powder:

25 grains = 874 fps
30 grains = 978 fps
35 grains = 1029 fps
40 grains = 1036 fps

Each increase of 5 grains resulted in a velocity increase of:

25-30 = 104 fps gain
30-35 = 51 fps gain
35-40 = 7 fps gain

Based on this information, going from 40 to 45 grains will gain very little and going from 45 to 50 grains will gain even less.

Unlike smokeless powder which produces most of its pressure in the first inch or so of the bullets travel down the bore, black powder burns slower so it needs more barrel length to completely burn.

A short piston barrel, in my opinion cannot use the full potential of the larger powder load beyond 40 grains.