traditionalist - Are we Loosing the Battle

[dave951]

The first time I ever shot a muzzleloader was at Philmont Scout Ranch in 1974. When I got home from that trip I bought a kit from Dixie Gunworks and started a lifelong hobby. I went back to Philmont in 2012 as a leader and the muzzleloader program was still a big hit with the boys. For most of the boys in our group it was the first time shooting black powder.

Today BSA encourages the use of muzzleloaders through its Rifle Shooting Merit Badge. If someone wanted to encourage traditional muzzleloading maybe supporting your local camp, if they have a ML program, would be a good way.

Note that I have never seen an inline at a scout camp, all sidelock percussions.
Here's the requirements for the Role Shooting Merit Badge:

Option C—Muzzleloading Rifle Shooting
(a) Give a brief history of the development of muzzleloading rifles.
(b) Identify principal parts of percussion rifles and discuss how they function.
(c) Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling of muzzleloading rifles.
(d) Identify the various grades of black powder and black powder substitutes and explain their proper use.
(e) Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
(f) Discusspropercomponentsofaload.
(g) Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzleloading rifle.
(h) Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzleloading rifle on a range, including range procedures. Explain what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
(i) Shoot a target with a muzzleloading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing a shot.
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(j) Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely.
(k) Identify the causes of a muzzleloading rifle’s failure to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
(l) Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzleloading rifle.
(m) Using a muzzleloading rifle of .45 or .50 caliber and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) at 50 feet that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft drink can.
(n) Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard tar- gets—7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100-yard targets—7.

Our efforts were targeting BSA camps. Most camps have some form of shooting sports. In the world of instructors, the NRA Muzzleloading Instructor certification is NOT common and among those with it, a precious few are active enthusiasts. A camp with instructors like I’ve described is quite rare. The size of the BSA followed by Royal Rangers, Trail Life and DeMolay encompasses literally millions of youth. It’s a great place to volunteer and support muzzleloading.

Our work was with the camp guns first and then with “Zouave” muskets. We had support from Schutzen and others for guns and consumables so there was no cost to the camp, win win in anybody’s book.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

As much as I would like to see a primitive only season in Virginia I don't see it happening. When I lived in Maine we were just happy to get the initial 3-day muzzle loading season.

In my home State of New York you have the Northern Zone and Southern Zone. In the Northern Zone the muzzle loading season comes before the regular firearms season. In the Southern Zone it is reversed.

In Virginia, the muzzle loader season comes before the regular firearms season. The problem is, it has become nothing more than an early start to the firearms season. This is due to the modern in-line stuff. I hunt the State WMA's. They are generally packed on Opening Day and Saturdays. The State is not going to give up those license sales to individuals who have no interest in learning about flintlock or real percussion rifles. If they can't have an optical sight, or modern equipment they are not going to bother.

We did just have a feedback survey where the DWR asked about rule changes. I mentioned that a primitive only season, even if only for three to five days was manageable. The WMA that I hunt holds a late archery/crossbow either sex season for nearly a month after the close of the regular firearms season. There is no reason why the first three days could not be a primitive muzzle loader season.

 

[toytruck]

I don't see the problem! One can use a traditional rifle during the early/late muzzleloader seasons or a inline in Va. During regular modern firearms season one can still use a muzzleloader without buying a muzzleloader license.
It's personal choice! Just because you don't want/like what others decide to hunt with shouldn't limit them to what you like to hunt with!!
We are all hunter's doesn't matter what weapon is used to kill a animal as long as it's a clean ethical kill!

 

[cannonball1]

Now back to the problem from by old existence on this earth. In Utah they changed the law to allow almost anything that stuffs from the barrel including scopes. The only six hunting friends I have, that are still alive, purchased the new fangled gun, and mind you these were traditionalist. I went to get in my sideXside and found my long tom did not readily fit so I purchased a shorter new fangled gun, yes it has a scope "because it is allowed". So now I become part of the problem. One day a friend and I went to the range, I with my traditional gun and "he" well he brought his long range muzzleloader - said he wanted to see what it would do at 500 yards. Years earlier we had tried to stop scopes and the newer type of muzzleloader and were shut down by Utah Wildlife Board. Why did that happen. Because the new fangled buckskinner traditionalists are just like ol' Jim Bridger, "Loners". They can't get organized for anything. I went to that buddies place that wanted to shoot at 500 yards and there in the den displayed very nicely were the Kentucky and the Green River Hawken I had made for him years ago. That is where it will probably stay, even though my hunting friends have agreed we would all like to see the new fangled ML'ers and scope outlawed for hunting deer and elk. To late for that, to much money from purchasing guns to go back.
I and a few friends did push for a separate traditional hunt for deer. Believe me we were heard, we were nice, but were heard and what did we get. A "HAMS" hunt which included handguns, recurve archery, and sort of traditional muzzleloaders and I mean sort of. They couldn't even come up with a clean description of that. They set up two units that have very few deer and give eight tags for the whole state. Talk about a slap in the face. On the other hand the loud organized archers get almost a month to hunt rather than eight days to hunt. Yes I used to be an archer and then it was great, but now, it just aint' so good. There is my rant,
Organization will get you everything, but the Jim Bridger's in Utah will never be organized. Target shooting looks better all the time. The heck it does!!

 

[longcruise]

Couldn't be more wrong. Haven't had the slightest desire or reason to ever line up an animal in my sights. I shoot steel plates, lots of them with unmentionables and a 50cal prb

I am actually one of the new guys into muzzleloading. Under 40, and seeing a bunch of old guys argue about a sport that is supposed to be fun. It's obvious why it isn't growing much, the community at large isn't welcoming to new comers.

I Assembled a Traditions kit, and was proud at learning to use a flintlock. I "learned" that it's a manure gun, not real, not traditional, not any other slander that i have read here. no wonder the sport is struggling to grow, not very inclusive.

Off my soap box now.

You are right about the lack of welcoming to newcomers. Most i see do welcome and encourage new shooters but there's this small number who think ridiculing and treating newbies like "pilgrims" is good sport but it tends to drive newcomers away.

On this desire for primitive and exclusionary seasons. I wonder why!! Why do we need a special time slot for our ml hunting. If you are allowed to hunt in the regular rifle season then do it. You will be introducing new people to muzzle loading with every hunter you meet up with.

This past fall I did all of my ml hunting during regular rifle seasons. It always starts an interesting conversation with other hunters.

 

[Chrisamx]

I'm from PA and we have a traditional season. Starts on Dec 26th. I absolutely enjoy the season. I have heard complaints about the season from traditional guys and non. Traditional guys will say rutts over, deer are all spooked, and crazy cold. Non traditional will say why do they get their own season. Every few years I will hear suggestions about making some changes and it gets shot down. I believe in PA the traditional side is strong but I don't think we are getting enough recruitment into traditionals. A local BP shop is crazy busy right now and is every year at this time. So they may disagree with me. I will say this they always have customers in the store when I go there no matter what time of the year. I think the best way to stop a decline is try to start a traditional muzzleloader club. Get people to the meetings and have them bring friends. Introduce them to the sport. I started a club where I live nothing fancy but its getting people to notice that its a good sport. Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I started Muzzleloader hunting in that season way back in 1975, Bradford County. I was 15 yo at the time and had a TC Hawken .50 I still own it. Last time I hunted it was in 82 when I was home on leave. Glad to see it still going on and hope to participate again on day.

 

[Irishmusket]

I can say there is one simple way to look at To some people that go hunting it all about Hunting .Nothing to do at all about what kind of shotgun or rifle they use they want what the feel gives them the most advantage .easier to use and only good for deer hunting .They even put scopes on them do not think a lot can not shoot well enough with old fashioned sights .One thing that troubles Me is why would you need scope in the first place to shoot deer at 50 yards in the woods of Massachusetts thats the rang 50 yards or less on average

 

[oldwood]

The Pa. "flintlock only" Deer season running for about 2 weeks 26th Dec. to some time in Jan. has always been a success . Been hunting it , since it began in 1973. Wouldn't trade the experience for any money. My hunting buddy and I wanted to have a truly 18th / early 19th century hunting experience. We hunted big woods Pa. State Game lands where there were good numbers of deer ,and did very well. Found the best way to hunt was still hunting because the season is frigid and standing around can be a cold proposition. I'min my 70's now and the early m/l season in Oct. just doesn't seem like hunting season. Unless you hunt over feed fields ,"bait" , and technically illegal, but many do it with their inline m/l rifles. Guess I'm not that hard up for a deer. I build several flintlock rifles a year and the folks ordering them want to hunt with them , use them for less expensive rifle practice and , there seems to be an unending interest in primitive m/l use here. Price of ctg. rifle ammo is pushing more people to try m/l shooting. .......oldwood

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Well go to any muzzleloader shoot or Kentucky rifle trade show or rendezvous,

What do you see?

Lots, and lots, of old men. Some wives but mostly a bunch of old fellas. Once they’re gone or too old to head to the range, this sport is going to take a huge toll. It doesn’t take a genius to realize the hobby is going to drop tremendously in the next 10-20 years. There is just NOT ENOUGH young blood coming into traditional muzzleloaders. You can’t go to these events, look around, and even begin to claim otherwise if you’re being honest with yourself.

 

[Carbon 6]

The 4 largest companies, if I am correct, are Pedersoli, CVA, Thompson/Center, and Knight.

Hmmm, no. More like Pedersoli. Lyman/Investarms, Traditions, and then it's a toss up but T/C and Knight don't even make the list.

 

[Art Caputo]

Yes. We are loosing the battle, and will continue to do so. Lots of good reasons and some short term remedies to prolong the tradition, but, OMO, there are root causes are far more profound and difficult to address. The problem lies with our youth, and the values, inspirations, and role models that implant the desires that can effect a lifelong desire for a given area of interest. Most of our youth doesn’t even know who Davy Crockett or Daniel Boone were, but they can explain in great detail why they want an I-phone 7 for Christmas. In a world driven ,by “shortcuts”, shooting a flintlock, driving a stick-shift, shooting a longbow/recurve, etc, etc, etc, continue to evolve to oddities of the past with each new generation. As “Smokey Plainsman” eluded to, ‘What is the average age of those that participate in our sport?”. We do everything we can to pass the word , but, for NOW, we should fully enjoy our sport! IMO.

 

[dave951]

It’s a losing battle if we do nothing and that’s exactly how we got to this point.

 

[oldwood]

My 48 year old son died , so I have to hang out w/ other peoples' grand children. This allows me to see where their heads are concerning how they think about the past where m/loading comes from. These kids are instructed in school that history doesn't matter and isn't taught , so can see no reason to care about it. What "old folks" think doesn't matter because they can be critical , their jokes, and stories might be offensive to some unknown entity , etc. , etc. , etc... The kids I see at the range seem to be excited about firearms , however how many of them have something for a male figure in their lives?? I'm not being very encouraging , so i'll quit this diatribe of stuff everyone knows anyway. Love the kids around you enough , to tell them the truth , who knows , you might score a point or two.............oldwood

 

[TFoley]

Nothing less than the truth, oldwood. These days you have to be brave to say it, and not only here in UK, but also, it would seem, in the 'home of the brave and the land of the free'.

We'll keep the faith - people like you and me - but when we're gone? What then?

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Not sure what "Battle" everyone is talking about. In my state & most everywhere else there are Muzzleloader only seasons (2 where I live) & I am free to use my Trad. ML in the modern gun seasons, as well. This gives me nearly seven weeks spaced from mid-October to mid-January to hunt deer with my ML. What other people use or are allowed to use is irrelevant to me. Complaining that you should be treated as "special" because you use a flintlock & should be awarded a "special" little season that everyone else is excluded from is narcissistic, selfish, & short sighted, IMHO, & that's why the Traditional ML's are fading from use. By associating & hunting with those "Evil" in-line hunters that are committing sins beyond what anyone can imagine, I have managed to convert several over to using traditional ML's & gained some hunting companions from the younger generations. If you guys would take the time to "hang" with these younger fellas you will find they have the same passion for hunting & shooting that you did & still do. If you consider anything you don't like as a "Battle" you aren't going to change a thing & are only contributing to the decline in the interest in our hobby. Throughout time, old men have thought the "world is going to Hell" & that nobody is "doin' it right", but when all the grouchy old men in our hobby "die off" & people no longer get "put off" by them, I believe our sport will have a resurgence & evolve with the future. Keeping a positive attitude & an open mind will go a long way towards that end. I, for one, am going to try to insure that happens. How about you!

 

[Peregrine]

"Bend the sapling the way you want the tree to grow". As was said several times, the kids have no role models or mentors to help them get started. Don't we 'oldies' have a responsibility to step up and be the mentors? It might mean we have to give up a day of hunting to take a newbie hunting or to the range. We all learned from someone. At the risk of slipping into 'back in the day'.... when I was a kid I walked out the kitchen door and was hunting squirrels. rabbits and pheasants in 3 minutes with my dad. All those farms are now a housing development and very few ever get to live that experience these days. The hunting influence and background these days is TV. Outdoor equipment marketing has a huge budget to influence interest and buying. Kids see a TV deer 'hunt' start and end with a huge buck in 30 minutes. That is hard to compete with, but I think we each share the responsibility of reaching out and spreading the message. The kids aren't going to come to us. Those days are gone.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Maryland introduced a 3-day "primitive" season this year - sidelocks or recurve/longbows only. I'm not certain how many new hunters it will draw, but at least they're trying.

Maryland also opened up "muzzleloader and shotgun only" hunting areas to rifles with straight-walled cartridges....so ......the areas that by default promoted black powder as it was a way to reach out beyond 50 yards (back in the days when there were no rifled barrels for shotguns, nor sabots, nor scopes for shotguns) which were eroded by "unmentioned" devices that use black powder, are now done away with.

They are trying to further thin the herd of deer. Other evidence of this is the allowance of Archery into areas of "no hunting zones" in populated areas, so long as the archer is shooting from a tree stand, down, at the deer.

My foray into black powder hunting was two-fold,

First, I lived in Maryland (still do; mores the pity), and back then I lived in a location where it was only shotgun or muzzleloader to hunt deer. Well the slug barrel (smooth but with open/iron/rifle sights) on the Remington 870 was accurate out to 50 yards, but beyond that...Nah! The muzzle loader (Thompson Center back then) was very accurate out to 100 yards. It was then by far the best option.

[The mentioning of the modern firearm above is merely to illustrate why the traditional sidelock muzzleloader was superior to the "modern" option of that time]

THEN I went to college, and when the fall semester ended and I came home, "regular gun season" was over, and only muzzle loader season was available to me, and a "traditional" muzzleloader was all that was made and sold at the time.

SO..., what to do?

Well, examine what caused the ML hobby to bloom in the first place ??

You had two TV events, when TV was "king". Disney produced what today is known as the Davey Crockett mini series from 1954 to 1955. This would re-air from time to time in the 1960's. The other event was Daniel Boone the TV series, which aired from 1964-1970.
ADD to that the Centennial of the ACW, and the most famous of the battles therein, Gettysburg.
ADD to all of the above with the movie Jeremiah Johnson, and then...
Throw in the American Bicentennial, which had reenactments leading UP to 1976, followed by the Bicentennial reenactments of famous battles such as Lexington & Concord, Long Island, Trenton, Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, etc etc. from 1976 thru 1981.....
(BECAUSE of the Bicentennial, the schools were very keen on early American History too, ....)
MY interest in Black Powder was because of ACW activities. Watching an ACW battle was cool, but how much more fun would it be to actually BE one of the guys in the battle ? ( I took up ML deer hunting later, as my family hunted but not deer.) It wasn't until the 1990's that I switched to AWI and flintlocks. Right about at the same time as Last of The Mohicans hit the theaters.... along with that Gettysburg also aired in the theaters....

My area saw a small uptick in attendance at ACW event when the series TURͶ: Washington's Spies aired on Cable TV. This ended in 2017

See the Behavioral Trend?

So without some sort of external reason, that prompts "the public's attention", interest will wane.

COVID might have a slight advantage, in that people will want to "get out of the house" when this pandemic ends due to vaccinations. SO...,

ALL you folks with input into clubs and other living history organizations, PUSH for planning of something Black Powder related, hopefully including some interaction with the public rather than them merely watching a battle demo this coming summer. The window will be small, and will end when folks "get it out of their system" ; their angst about being shut up indoors for sooooo long, will only last so long, eh ?

LD

 

[bjarard]

Quite frankly, I'd be surprised (stunned) if any indoor range allowed muzzleloaders. Imagine the smoke problems if even 1/4 of the shooters on the line shot a black powder weapon... T/C is still making muzzleloaders. Margins/sales are apparently better with the inline stuff.

Point Blank indoor ranges in Cincinnati allow muzzleloaders

 

[Critterkiller]

I do believe traditional guns are losing interest. People for the most part want easy, and inlines are easier, less expensive to buy and for the most part more accurate. Plus the price of many of the traditional rifles are far higher then you can buy an inline for. Inlines are available just about any where, where as it’s difficult to find a good traditional rifle. We used to have a “ rendezvous” we would attend all the time and it would attract a lot of new comers. That has disappeared years and years ago, just before the inline craze hit. I also think it is because most get into black powder just as a way of having another opportunity to kill something, and they are not into the actual “ tradition” part of it. And the easier, the better. Fish and wildlife make it more and more acceptable to use inlines, pellet powder, sabots, scopes, 209 and firearm primers, smokeless powder during the “ traditional” black powder seasons and most guys want to use the most advantages they can, so they buy inlines. It’s not about hunting and getting close to your game anymore, it’s about how far away can I shoot them. Sad but it’s the sign of the times.

 

[Pa-brushbuster71]

Ask the Pennsylvania muzzleloader hunters how they feel about that.

I love the Late PA season! You can use your unused buck tag as a doe tag anywhere in the state. Minimal amount of hunters in the woods, decent action if you can fine food sources the deer are hitting.