Tomahawk and Knife Fighting

[Shine]

Im gonna tell you guy this. And this is something I know a little about. I don't care how many classes,videos,or high speed training you have. When it comes down to cold steel your gonna get cut. The one who gets cut more loses.
The classic defensive knife wound goes all the way through . The one on my gut did not. The one on my hind quarter went in all the way to the femur.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know reverse grips are used in many areas- we're talking about here, pre-1840, and tomahawk/knife.

Escrima, Arnis, Kali, we all impacted by the arrival of the Spaniards, and they brought steel. Espada y Daga techniques and footwork are from European rapier and dagger fighting, and they are not modern techniques, but are centuries old that have merely survived to modern times...

Spanish colonization and settlement in the Phillipeans began with the arrival of Miguel López de Legazpi's expedition on February 13, 1565 who established the first permanent settlement of San Miguel on the island of Cebu. The expedition continued northward reaching the bay of Manila on the island of Luzon on June 24, 1571, where they established a new town and thus began an era of Spanish colonization that lasted for more than three centuries.

As for tomahawk... a stick, is a club, is a tomahawk... there is only so much one can do, and it's well established that independent cultures with similar tools often develope the same techniques.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

When it comes down to cold steel your gonna get cut.

This is an ugly thread with a morbid fascination. Many years ago I studies Karate Do. We were not taught knife fighting but were taught some defensive measures against a knife attack. The instructor emphasized that no matter how good we were with our bare hands, against a knife, we were going to get cut. I have never been in a knife attack/fight situation and hope to live out the rest of my years not having the experience. But, I do carry a defensive firearm and will use that rather than try to be movie brave. BTW, in our carry classes we were taught that, if you haven't drawn your firearm yet, a knife attacker twenty-one feet away will cut you before you are able to draw. That is actually a principle in law and a legal defense.

 

[Crow Beads]

Like I said before, I just want to learn the techniques for aesthetic value only. McLemore illustrates sets that can be practiced like katas or forms in martial arts. I have studied Judo, Jujutsu and various styles of Kung Fu in the U.S, Japan and Canada for over thirty years. Never once have I been in a street fight. I carry a pistol for that.

McLemore may not teach pure American frontier fighting but I think he comes close enough to the central idea for my purposes.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

BTW, in our carry classes we were taught that, if you haven't drawn your firearm yet, a knife attacker twenty-one feet away will cut you before you are able to draw. That is actually a principle in law and a legal defense

Actually it's if there is no other obstacle... a knife wielding attacker who is at 21 feet or less, and starts from a still position, will reach the average person who is the target before they can draw. When the attacker is already moving ... i.e. charging the target... if the attacker is closer than 50 feet, the target will not be able to draw before being struck. Plus, if a person does manage to get off a shot, and hits the knife wielder, unless that shot instantly disables the attacker causing them to halt... the attacker will still reach and strike the target. It might be a mortal wound, but not enough to shut down the attack. Hence the emphasis on getting some sort of obstacle between the threat and you, and trainging to react to such an attack empty handed, to keep the wounds you are going to get from being mortal or disabling... but you are going to get cut up quite a bit.

In my 23 years of Law Enforcement, 50% of all of the homicides were from knives. (We've had three in the past week by knives) Less than 20% of the shootings proved fatal, and even those included folks who died from secondary infections, NOT bullet wounds.

LD

 

[crockett]

LD- I read something about "incapacitation time" or how long it took for a round to take effect and that even with a 357 magnum it was something like 3 1/2 seconds- plenty of time for a knife armed bad guy to get you, so yeah, shoot and keep shooting and step lightly in a rearward direction.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah I think it's actually longer, unless you hit 'im in the brain, spine, or femor. Add to that adrenalin, and like a spooked buck that's dead and doesn't know it..., the bad guy can go for what seems to be a long time.

OH and directly rearward = your doom. You want to move away at an angle, or move toward at an agle (if you can dodge or parry) to get behind the guy. Imagine you are standing on an "X" at the very center, and can only move along one of the arms; the X reorients itself for each step you take. The attacker has to reorient for each attack, when he does, you move again. You may end up circling and taking minor cuts, which is much better than getting a thrust.

LD

 

[Rev_William]

I took American Kenpo we were required to learn the basics of different weapons at each belt. When we hit Brown belt we found out we were learning knife and dbl stick systems the whole time by altering our techniques from open hand to holding a weapon. We learned a fileting technique that makes you cringe if you ever have to use it in real life.

 

[crockett]

Thanks about that side step- good to know.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yep, probably. Yours on the bottom has the same style (acid?) engraving as my knife. None are worth a hoot for anything except looking at. As I said, mine is well over 70 years old. I have no idea if it has acquired and collectors value by now.

 

[Grumpa]

The FBI teaches that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to sustain an attack for 10 - 15 seconds after the heart is destroyed. That is a long time, if someone is trying to kill you.

This is a most interesting and valuable thread.

 

[Wes/Tex]

What you said is the basic fallacy about what most people and Hollywood knows, or think it knows, about the use of knives. A knife tossed into the chest isn't going to put someone down...neither is a stab. Sometimes a thrust to the kidneys, etc. may incapacitate someone long enough to finish the job but unless the major arteries are cut, a person can stay up and conscious for many seconds if not a minute or more. If you ever figure to have to defend yourself with a blade, count on being cut in return...almost no way out of it.

The only sure way to stop an attacker with a knife is to make deep cuts across the triceps(will disable the hand immediately below the cut); deep cuts across the biceps(will disable the arm below the cut); or deep cut across the quadriceps(will cause the victim to drop down because of disabling of leg). These cuts will slice through muscle and possibly tendons to render the attacker at a distinct disadvantage. It also gives you the chance to disengage and get the hell out! Never play hero...save yourself and get somewhere to call for help! Yes, even in defense you need to be as legal and proper as possible...lawyers just love these cases!

 

[Sean Gadhar]

Why is the knife when used with a tomahawk most often held in the reverse grip with the blade positioned away from the body? .

Adrenalin :idunno:

Ever watch two guys who both "think" they can fight? Both are in some pose, working around each other. Then someone gets HIT Adrenalin kicks in and next thing you know both are throwing roundhouse punches, and one is holding up his ball cap as a shield :shocked2:

It's all real cool with two weapons in the back yard. . . but when the adrenalin rushes in, your fine motor skills & timing both abandon you, and your cross body hawk swing meets your off hand stab

Unless I had spent a LOT of time working a two weapon kata, I would leave my knife in my belt, or pick up a rock the size of a big orange.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The FBI teaches that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to sustain an attack for 10 - 15 seconds after the heart is destroyed. That is a long time, if someone is trying to kill you.

This is a most interesting and valuable thread.

Not always. A heart hit often causes an instant drop in all blood pressure. There is a term for it but is really just sudden hypotension. This causes instant black out and near instant death. But, all situations are different. Lingering can happen. I once had a book of FBI tests on wound effects. It was found identical and repeatable results were impossible to achieve. They used live sheep and fixed firearms to try to repeat hits and effects. Never happened.

 

[Grumpa]

Very true. In life and death encounters there are no "Formulas", only "Guidelines" at best. No gun is a sure stopper, and no wound guarantees incapacitation. There are men who have sat down an died from what could only be described as superficial wounds, and men who had to be dead on their feet, but killed the man who killed them.

Wes/Tex has the right idea - if you can, "disengage and get the hell out".

 

[crockett]

Wes- I agree. That old Johnny Ek manual talked about slashing cuts to biceps, etc to incapacitate the enemy. And, everyone gets cut. That may explain why a lot of mountain men carried pistols but not fighting knives. They carried a butcher knife for carving up game but in a fight usually ran "fer life"- or at least that's what gets talked about in a lot of diaries.

 

[smo]

I had a friend of mine back in the 80's that received over 700 stiches from a guy in a knife attack. His left bicep was cut into from the top of it down to his elbow on the inside part down of his arm. As he turned to get away he was stabbed in the right shoulder 2" to the left of his neck and cut straight down his back through his belt. The next stab wound was approx. an inch to the right of the first and was pulled down his back and around to his left rib cage. At that point he was able to get away and dive off a high bank into the river which is most likely why he is still with us today. :shocked2:The river water was cold and slowed the bleeding down, he was 25 miles from the closest hospital/Doctor. Cuts like he received are very ugly and painful. :bull: :shake: All the more reason to pack a nice .45 :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Your friend is indeed lucky! Had the bicep cut been across and deep, he would have only been able to swim with one arm. The across cuts through muscle an tendon will immobilize suddenly. Stabs will be chancy at best and your friend is a classic example of how stab victims often live to tell the tale. I've been very lucky through life to have only a couple small scars...the deepest was self inflicted...hint, if cutting s plastic wrapping strap, do it away from yourself! DUH!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Sickeningly ugly just reading your description.
Even in my karate classes decades ago, we were told in close fighting against a knife was certain go get us cut. Best defense was to run. Good defense is not to pretend you are Bruce Lee. Good defense is to defend yerself, even if it means running away.

 

[Wes/Tex]

:thumbsup: Best defense is not let yourself get in the situation...second best is run like hell!