The origin of the dragon side plate?

[Anders L]

This is not a identification question, more of a try to find out were a special kind of side plate ornament comes from.

I have seen several 18th and even early 19th C guns with a side plate with a similar dragon shaped sideplate. The dragons mouth is normally touching the front screw.

Just recently on this forum: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/264226/tp/1/

On norwegian ski-runner rifles:
http://norskevaapen.no/?p=541
(These were made in Suhl, Germany, similar one found on Herman Historica http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm59.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=1822&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat59_s.txt )

And even one in my own collection:

This one is shortened.

I have found them both made of iron and cast in brass.

Perhaps these dragons are connected somehow, they design is quite unique, for example, look att the dragons mouth with its big lips.

Any thoughts? Comments? :hmm:

 

[dyemaker]

Hej,

I have a thought about the Scandinavian firearms... The Midgard Serpent? Dragons seem to be very common decoration on guns through time from Chinese cannons until recently at least 1840 or so. I saw two or three wheellocks that copied art and were decorated with a representation of St. George slaying a dragon. I have photos of various German guns made in Suhl with locks that represent dragons and they look very similar in style. I'm not implying that I know the origin. Now it's someone else's turn to reply.

 

[fklein]

I am certainly no arms historian, but I have been curious too. It seems to be some Medieval affectation carried over into the 17th and 18th centuries. Weren't dragons/serpents fire breathing? Are they just artistic embellishments, or was there supposed to be some mystical connection to the gun which also breathed fire? Why were gargoyles placed on buildings?

 

[matt denison]

Nathan Bender does an indepth and scholarly paper about this very subject in vollume 5 of "The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Journal" The paper is "St. George and the Dragon Sideplate: An Art History for North American Trade Guns". It adresses dragon sideplates from early 17th century Dutch guns through the 19th century.

For years and years we called them Serpents. He and I argued about this and he finally convinced me that they are dragons. I also said "dragons spit fire", He said "only cartoon dragons spit fire". Dragons were considered real animals in the middle ages. St. George slayed one after all. You need to read the article for more information, too much to post here.

The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Journals are available from the Sublette County Historical Society, Pinesdale, WY. museumofthemountainman.com

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've most often heard it referred to as a serpent side plate. They don't have legs. ;-)

 

[matt denison]

neither do dragons

Read the article

 

[hanshi]

You didn't see that movie, did you? :grin:

 

[RedFeather]

See "Wheel Lock Pistol War Hammer". Has a nice dragon motif engraving.
http://www.cullodenantiques.com/pages/armour-1.html

 

[Stumpkiller]

neither do dragons

Ours do. ;-) Nydhogg - gnawing on the roots of the world tree. (From an ancient manuscript - so it's documented)

Now sea serpents - they's got fins and tails - like the sideplates.

 

[Anders L]

Whatever reptile were taking about, dragons, serpents, basilisk, dragon serpent etc, its interesting to trace the ornament. Its not very common i scandinavia as far as I know.

This ornament is very special compared with ordinary styles gun decoration.It looks like no other...

Dyemaker, is there anyway you could post some pics of these Suhl guns?

 

[dyemaker]

Here they are. Made somewhere around 1830 or so by Funk and also by Jung. I think the last is a Kuchenreuter pistol, I put it there by mistake.

http://imageshack.us/g/406/722u.jpg/

Here is a chinese dragon cannon. Notice it has big floppy lips also. Edo period 17th century is what it said.
http://www.tokugawa-art-museum.jp/english/parmanent/room1/images/1_09.jpg

 

[dyemaker]

Edo period is Japanese; that's what doesn't make sense.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Equally puzzling is the origin of the weeping heart. It has been 'traced' to many countries, cultures, several continents and periods in time.

 

[tg]

The serpentine side plate is shown in high end Euro guns from Belgium, Scandanavia, France, Austria and others from as early as the first quarter of the 17th century in a variety of designs one is even a decoration on the right side of the butstock of one gun. Many are not that dissimilar from those we see on the mid 18th century and later guns,and likley were used on pre true flintlock guns such as the snaphance and others, see Torsten lenks "The Flintlock and its Origin". More would likley show but he focuses on the locks not the sideplates so moct of these are not shown.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

So does anyone have photographic evidence of an early 17th century gun of any sort with a serpent/dragon sideplate? Just wondering. This sets the clock on dragon/serpent sideplates quite a bit. Great info. .

 

[dyemaker]

This one is on the lockplate.
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/monkeyrivertown/5327826975/

Interesting also is the origin of the word dragoon.

 

[Anders L]

Looked up Torsten Lenks The flintlock and there are several pics of reptile/serpent/dragon-shaped sideplates. I have the book in my bookshelf but didnt care to look it up since most guns portayed in this book is to fancy:redface:

The origin seems to be french, like many other gun features at this time. Dragonlike creatures are popular elements in art in 17th C Europe.

 

[Zonie]

So does anyone have photographic evidence of an early 17th century gun of any sort with a serpent/dragon sideplate? Just wondering. This sets the clock on dragon/serpent sideplates quite a bit. Great info. .

In the book, "COLONIAL FRONTIER GUNS" by T.M. Hamilton, cw 1980, Pioneer Press, 1987, the author lists the period for the French Type C Tradegun as 1680-1730 (p 29). That would place them into the late 17th century.

Shown on page 33 of that book is an excavated type C Tradegun sideplate that clearly has a dragon head munching on what would have been the forward lock screw.

Although the rifle shown below does not represent the type C time period I choose to use some French furniture on it.

The type C sideplate that I used on this gun (from TOTW) looks very much like the dragon sideplate shown on page 33 except the dragon head was replace by a nondescript form.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Zonie, I tend to favor plain guns for smoothies.
But, I sure wouldn't kick that one out the door. :grin: Beautiful.

 

[Anders L]

I belive that the guns I showed in my first post represents simple versions and designs of more advanced and more exclusive weapons.