TC vs L&R rpl lock

[torpedo]

Would I gain much by replacing my stock TC lock with the L&R replacement lock?

 

[Don Steele]

Since we're in the Flintlock section of the forum..I'm going to assume you're asking about a flintlock.
Earlier T/C locks had some problems that caused the folks up there to modify the lock design and produce a "new model". The answer to your question depends upon which T/C lock you have.
My T/C flintlock is an older rifle...1970's vintage. I acquired one of the "new model" locks for it, which was a genuine "drop-in" fit. After shooting it a bit, I replaced the frizzen with a Lyman frizzen, that I purchased "pre-fitted" to go right onto my new model T/C lock. I'm VERY pleased with that set-up. I have 2 rifles with Chambers locks and will tell you that my modified-new-model T/C doesn't give up much in performance to them. I don't believe the T/C has the longevity...but for a rifle I don't shoot that much, it works great. My Chambers locks get a LOT of work. The latest has given me over 650 rds. since June, the older one in my Davis SMR has fired several thousand rounds in the couple of years I've had it.
A buddy of mine bought the L&R "drop-in" replacement. It wasn't a "drop-in" by any means.
He has had a lot of issues with it and as a result I don't see it at the range too much.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The lock itself is an "improvement" over the "old style" TC Hawken flint lock. The pan seals, and it has a roller frizzen (some folks disagree this is always an improvement). It will give you a different "look" to your rifle as well. Plus, this lock is currently still in production, while the TC Hawken lock is not, and eventually factory replacement parts will dry up. As written in the previous reply, the older TC flint locks had some functioning problems from time to time, and L&R sells this as a way of eliminating those problems, though the lock isn't sold as a "drop-in" since it is also recommended for other factory rifles as well. Whether you end up trading old problems for new problems remains to be seen. You will need to be very careful that you align it just right when it's installed.

LD

 

[torpedo]

Thanks for the input, I believe I have an early lock as the serial number is 13xxx. Just got it from the gun show here, so will see how it performs and maybe make the change. It appears to have never been fired, as the barrel is pristine, and the frizzen has not been struck.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

One thing....don't use TC or Traditions or any other brand of "sawn flint". Get proper knapped flints. They do make a difference.

LD

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have posted this many times before to the same question, the L&R lock is a good one, like stated before I am an experienced gun builder and it took all my skills and more to fit the L&R into the TC.

I could go on for pages but here is one picture that shows the problem. I had to move the barrel back to line the pan up with the touchole, I had to drill a blind hole and hit the small fixture on the bridal for the lock bolt as the TC hole was way off for the L&R lock. I had to grind off the back of the hooked breech to accommodate the new lock bolt. I had to completely inlet for the lock because I was using a percussion stock. The L&R was too small for the inlet so I had put shims in to fill a gap in the back of the mortise.

It came out ok after two weeks of work.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I studied Eric Krewsons photos and advice when I purchased an L&R for my Renegade FL. It was a lot of wood removal for a proper fit. With caution, I got it done. I use the flints that L&R sells for their lock. It produces a lot more sparks than the TC lock, and the frizzen came properly adjusted. The Frizzen to pan fit is excellent. The pan could use some polishing to make it easier to wipe clean. It was worth the $185 to me.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Another thing; from working on several TCs I found they are not the cookie cutter copies like one would expect. You may have one that readily accepts the L&R lock without much work, one like mine that is a nightmare or anything in between.

 

[TerryK]

I put a RPL on my Renegade many years ago. It was a big improvement. I recently sold the TC lock for more than I paid for the LR, because I bought it 15 years ago..

 

[moleeyes36]

As Eric said, TC's are not cookie cutter copies. I think this is quite possibly a result of changes made over the long production run. I've worked on many TC's for people over the years and have seen this a lot. A gentleman recently obtained, via an estate sale, a pristine, untouched TC Hawken kit in .45 percussion and wanted me to build it and sell it for him. It was one of those versions that came with accessories (factory mold, short starter, nipple wrench, etc.). In the box was the original sales receipt dated in 1976. The lock plate was a little different shape than the later models, the factory inletting of the trigger guard was sloppy and left some big gaps, and there was a lot of extra wood to be removed. However, the wood was a really nice piece of walnut; far nicer than the later made versions.

I've collected an assortment of TC parts over the years and when someone brings me a TC to work on I can usually find a part that fits their gun. And that is important, because Eric is quite correct in saying TC's are not cookie cutter copies.

 

[Toneloc]

After reading up on this thread (and finding a few other threads on the web) I decided to "upgrade" to the RPL for a Hawken that I picked up cheap.

My initial feeling out of the box was the fit and finish on the RPL was fairly poor. Getting over that...I decided to move forward with the inletting.

I completed that and have it bolted in....but seems like it sits low....can't think of any simple options to address.

Is this "normal" for the RPL?

Any suggestions?

 

[FishDFly]

Call the RPL, seems simple to me.

 

[Eric Krewson]

It is a little high but should work OK. Give it a test run and see.

Here is what I ran into when I put my RPL in the existing inlet on the TC Renegade. I moved the barrel back and down to get the right sunset touch hole location.

 

[SDSmlf]

After reading up on this thread (and finding a few other threads on the web) I decided to "upgrade" to the RPL for a Hawken that I picked up cheap.

My initial feeling out of the box was the fit and finish on the RPL was fairly poor. Getting over that...I decided to move forward with the inletting.

I completed that and have it bolted in....but seems like it sits low....can't think of any simple options to address.

Is this "normal" for the RPL?

Any suggestions?

Within the variation I have seen, not as bad as some, and should shoot. Still have a GPR that I put one in, with the touch hole winding up a little forward. Had similar issues to what @Eric Krewson described with fit and position. Luck of the draw I guess. The lock is an upgrade over OEM lock, but wouldn’t suggest it if you have a well functioning lock already. Just my opinion. You can still get TC updated cocks for around $25 and modified Lyman frizzens that fit TCs for around $30.

 

[Toneloc]

Thanks for the input guys.

The primary purpose of this is for a hunting gun for Pennsylvania late season for my son. What bothers me the most is the touch hole being exposed with the pan fully closed....worried about weather exposure. It probably would still fire like it is...but would be concerned about trusting it, especially in bad weather.

What about using a 1/4-28 stainless bolt for a plug? Could trim it and file flush with the barrel, then re-drill and tap it a little lower? It looks like I could go 3/32" lower and still remain on the flat and would be about perfect. I work for a equipment manufacturer and I've seen overlapping drill and tapped bolts like that for metal stitching cast iron to repair.

I was able to sell my TC lock on flea bay and take the proceeds from that and get a dozen flints and the RPL lock from Track...so money wise it wasn't a bad deal. I was disappointed in the overall fit and finish. Lots of gaps in the perimeter vs. the TC, quality of the casting is just not great, not well de-burred...seems like it would be really difficult to polish.

Having said all that, it does grip a flint way more secure than the TC lock and seems like it's much better geometry striking the frizzen. It sparks really well and seems like it's kinder on the flint. I can live with the less than stellar fit and finish if it means reliability in the field...which is what I'm mostly after.

 

[Zonie]

I don't like to see the vent hole with the frizzen closed either.
I think part of the problem is, that vent liner has a large hexagon wrench drive exposed for all the world to see. If it was just a simple vent liner with nothing but the vent hole drilled thru it's face, it might be below the edge of the frizzen cover. If it is, I'd say it's "good to go".
If the liner with just a vent hole in it's face can still be seen with the frizzen cover closed, something more serious like increasing the depth of the barrel channel to lower the barrel might be needed. (That would also require the hooked breech block to be lowered to match the barrels new location.)

Get ahold of L&R and send them some pictures of your installed new lock. They might have a better answer for the problem like a special, higher cover frizzen to cover the vent hole?

 

[EC121]

When you buy a lock by itself, a lot of the parts are in "as cast" condition. That is normal for most locks. They aren't factory finished like the production rifles. You have to polish them on the outside, and depending on the brand the inside also. They are investement cast with a sandblasted finish, but to me they still need polishing. You can usually tell that someone is on the learning curve when they just inlet the lock and brown the lock as it comes.
As far as the vent liner, you could get one of those bolts with the unthreaded shank above the threads of the proper thread. Then screw it in until the barrel hits the threads, file it flush, and re-drill the hole. You might have to have an offset inside cone to shorten the hole, but it will work.

 

[Toneloc]

L&R suggested making an offset touch hole...doesn't sound like they have a custom pan. Definitely on the learning curve EC121... Didn't realize in the white meant to no de-burring/as-cast finish... lesson learned....will be a good wintertime activity.

I've only got $200 in the entire project, definitely not a looker....but hoping to make it a good shooter for the boy.

 

[Eric Krewson]

You could move the barrel down and back a touch like I did. The wedge pins on my gun still fit with a little filing of the underlugs, I had to trim the back of the under rib a little because it was hitting the stock. This did away with the little spring that holds the ramrod but it is unnecessary anyway.

The L&R lock is fast and a great sparker, my experience with shoddy workmanship from L&R after sending my lock back twice forever turned me against ever using one of their locks in the future. It appears they have no quality control whatsoever and send anything out no matter how flawed.

Finished the lock is pretty good but my $180 lock cost me $210 with all the shipping back and forth plus I ended up fixing the last flaw myself rather than sending it back one more time.

 

[Toneloc]

Eric, you did a beautiful job finishing the metal...any tips on how you sanded all the little nooks?

Front to center is perfect alignment. The barrel on this gun had some pitting....so it's not like it's in great shape....so to me the easiest fix would be to plug and re-drill and tap the touch hole. Then I can use the normal touch hole bushings. I have a drill press so I don't think it should be too difficult to do this. Would you go stainless for the plug or a carbon steel since the barrel is carbon steel anyhow?