Stock staining question

[Brasilikilt]

Hey all

I've been in my work space trying to get my Bess stock stained darker.
I got some "Old Masters" Spanish oak stain which is a very dark, almost black color. After using Kleen Strip on the stock,scraping off the old clear coat, sanding down with 100-220-400-500 grits,and then applying my finish.

The stock doesn't want to take much color.

First time I painted the stain on the stock , let it sit and soak for 15 minutes and per the instructions I "wiped off the excess" which
didn't take, and left a color that looked nothing like I was expecting.

The second time I thought I would get crafty. Since I wanted a really dark brown (almost black) I figured I would use regular brown walnut stain and darken it by mixing in a bit of the Spanish Oak stuff.
When I brushed this stuff on, it looked PERFECT.....I was really excited, and left the stain to soak into the wood overnight and the next day.....about 18 hrs total. My stain mixture was stuck on the surface of the wood, just thick and sticky.....I wiped it off thinking that some color would have soaked in. Of course it didn't.

I got frustrated and melted a little candle wax with some linseed oil and rubbed that in. The stock is certainly presentable and protected, but not the color I want.

I was thinking that if I wanted to go for the dark stock later, I can use a solvent to get the oil and stain residuals out and start all over again.

I've stained furniture before and never had these kinds of problems

What do you all suggest?

Thanks

Iain

 

[jtmattison]

I'm no expert but maybe the sanding with such fine paper (500 grit) isn't leaving the pores open to accept the stain. 220 is as fine as I go on gun stocks.

HD

 

[Norskie]

Sounds like you didn't get the sealer out of the wood. By the way, what wood is your stock made from? I'd try wood stripper again. Also, maybe you need to scrape, rather than sand. The pores on the surface may be filled with sanding dust.
You may have to use aqua fortis or other oxidising stain. I've had good luck with that, darkening a beech stock that I stripped the varnish and stain from.

 

[Vaino]

What type of stain are you using? Alcokol based stain, aniline dyes or oil based stain? Aniline dyes will penetrate through the sealer and I use them a lot for a final stain after applying many coats of LMF sealer......Fred

 

[George Holton]

After you stripped and sanded the stock, did you whisker it by dampening it and drying it? that will get rid of the dust and stuff closing the wood pores. This will allow the stain entrance to the wood. just my guess. Bob

 

[dlocke]

Yeah, that 500 grit paper made the wood like glass. Hard to suck in stain that way. I agree that 220 is as far as you should go if you want to stain. I'd be willing to bet that 150 would be better. I'd try stripping the stock and staining it with alcohol-based stain. Do-overs aren't so bad, esp. if you are not satisfied with your musket.
My usual technique is to seal the wood with a mix of 4 to 1 mineral spirits and tung oil finsih or BLO, depending on the rifle (I generally only use BLO on milsurp centerfire rifles that were originally finished with BLO). After the sealer coat has cured, I sand in a mix of 1 to 1 to 1 finish/mineral spirits/oil stain with 220 garnet. I sand the mix in a circular fashion and lightly wipe it after is gets gummy cross-grain with a piece of blue shop towel (doesn't leave lint). Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 applications over the course of a week to darken to stock to where I like it. For dark woods like walnut I use a red mahogany stain. It darkens the wood and gives a nice reddish hue. For other woods I'll use dark walnut stain. After the coats are sanded in I rub in 5 or 6 coats of pure finish (or oil), rubbing a dab of the stuff over as far as it will go, then wiping with a blue towel with the grain. I finish the whole thing with a couple coats of Butcher's wax and buff the hell out of it with a soft towel.
DJL

 

[dlocke]

Oh, yes, I forgot. You probably already know this, but wash the stock well with mineral spirits before finishing. When the wood is wet wth MS, you will have a good idea of how it will look when finished. Wood is funny stuff. I have a walnut 1903A3 stock that turned almost black with BLO alone, and a walnut Garand stock that needed dark walnut stain literally painted on coat after coat. My front-stuffer stocks get whiskered, too. I don't do that with milsurps b/c they get at least 4 trips to the sink for a Purple-Power / hot water scrubbing to get the cosmoline out between sandings. I wouldn't soak anything but a half-stock ML in water. That could cause big problems with a thin forend.
DJL

 

[LRB]

It is not your sanding. There is still something in the wood! Spirit stains will usually penetrate most finishes, but some are tougher tah others.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

Ian,
On my GPR, I first filled the wood with black artists oil paint, rubbed back. The walnut was then stained with a combination of Laural Mtn. Lancaster and Cherry. The result was a dark redish brown, almost black in certain lighting situations. You also might try AF stain as some suggest, or a vinegar stain. I worked up a small batch of vinegar stain (it has sat around for a month or two) and it will stain wood a good black. I'm still experimenting with this and am no expert at it yet. Some wood will stain black immediately, other wood will go black after heating it with a torch. I just finished a ram rod with the vinegar stain and it is a nice ebony.
Scott

 

[squirejohn]

Dark leather dye may do the trick. I used some mixed with Chambers walnut stain I had and it darkened the stock (teak or rosewood) of an India import fowler very dark.

 

I got frustrated and melted a little candle wax with some linseed oil and rubbed that in. The stock is certainly presentable and protected, but not the color I want.

I was thinking that if I wanted to go for the dark stock later, I can use a solvent to get the oil and stain residuals out and start all over again.

I've stained furniture before and never had these kinds of problems

What do you all suggest?

Thanks

Iain

Tip # 1. Ask before you operate.

Tip # 2. Ask someone that really knows. PM one or two of the better gunbuilders on the forum that you know you can trust. You might start by choosing one that has posted a picture of a gun in the finish you seek.

Tip # 3. A traditional gun has nothing in common with a bookshelf and should not be built, finished, preserved or used in the same manner.

Tip # 4. Test a stain process on the wood under the buttplate or in the barrel channel before you apply it to the entire gun.

Each time I see the words "I got frustrated" I am certain that a gun has just been ruined. That linseed and beeswax has penetrated deeper than you would ever imagine. I am not sure you will ever pull all of it out of the wood so that a proper stain would penetrate. Any chemicals or commercial stains you use hinder the action of the natural processes you should have used.

You could have had a good black finish on the gun in one or two evenings if you had asked first. There are two or three methods that would have done what you want.

For anything to work now will require that you scrape the stock deeply and apply laquer thinner after the top layer is removed. Fortunately, most of the imported Muskets have extra wood that you should remove anyway. In the 18th century guns were scraped to final finish.

Start scraping and PM me when you get down to bare wood. We can get you a black gun if you can scrape past the linseed.

 

[rich pierce]

you guys gave good advice.

 

[Brasilikilt]

Hello everyone

Thanks for all the helful replies.

It sounds like I am going to have to restrip the stock and start sanding/scraping

To answer some of your questions:

My stock has graining like walnut, but looks a little too light, but after asking questions at my job (hardwood store) I was told that walnut tends to lighten and almost look like teak as it gets older.
It's what I guess a stock from a Japanese Bess as the barrel was marked 'Dixie Gun Works'

The stain I am using is an oil based penetrating stain. It's the "Old Masters" brand.

I didn't whisker the stock with water, I just gave it a good wiping with paint thinner and then a dry cloth to remove the dust.

My sanding was mostly done with the 150 and 220 grits, so I didn't exactly get the wood "like glass" just a little smoother to the touch

BLO= boiled linseed oil.......right?

For the scraping process I'm guessing things like chisels, hand plane blades and smaller knife blades will be sufficient?

I'm thinking that my intial stripping of the stock didn't get everything out, and that I could have sanded down more.

Here's what I will do: I will use the last of my clean strip and let it sit for a while hoping that will draw a lot of the oils and manure out, and then give the stock a good wiping with paint thinner before scraping and sanding the whole stock down.
Sound good?

Ghost.........since you say the Linseed oil penetrates deep, wouldn't it make sense to use a linseed based stain?
The stock doesn't have any particularly attractive grain or figuring to it, so I don't need to enhance anything like that, just darken the stock to a real blackish brown so that you can maybe see just a little brown undertone.

Don't ask me why, that's just the way a musket should look in my minds eye

I will wait for a response from some of you before proceeding

thanks for the help

Iain

 

[Vaino]

From what I've heard, the pigment of oil based stains just sits on the surface and doesn't penetrate the wood. Don't think oil based stains are used on gunstocks....have never read where anybody recommends their use......Fred

 

[Zonie]

From what I've heard, the pigment of oil based stains just sits on the surface and doesn't penetrate the wood. Don't think oil based stains are used on gunstocks....have never read where anybody recommends their use......Fred

Oil base stains work great on bare wood fences and decks. :grin: :rotf:

IMO, you are correct when it comes to staining a gunstock.

zonie

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most stocks made for military rifles and muskets were plain grained, " utility grade " stocks of walnut, ash, birch, or maple. They were stained dark and then finished with whatever oil finish was at hand, including BLO, for the most part. BLO was used by the American Army until the M-16 was adopted and they had to find something else for the recruits to do all day long besides hand run their gunstocks with BLO!

Today, we are not using these guns to fight wars. Most re-enactors are thrilled to find a nicely grained stock on their replica Brown Bess.

If you happen to have some nicely figured wood on a Bess, or other military replica, why not let the wood be seen, rather than cover it up with dark stains?

By doing so, you can certainly find your gun in a stack of guns, or in a gunrack at the range in a hurry. You also will increase the value of your gun over those of others, with lesser grades of wood on them, stained dark, to almost black, so there is no grain in the wood visible! I have seen some stocks come out on these replicas that will have a nicely figured burl walnut pattern, probably around what was an old branch, in the butt portion of the stock, while the grain along the forestock was straight and boring. That is probably why the maker did not charge more for the stock. But why not let that rich grain structure shine for others to enjoy with you? If I used any stains at all, it would be with the intent to highlight that figured grain, not to cover it. I might use a light cherry stain to fill the coarse cells, and whipe the stock off quickly. Then depending on how dark the natural color of the wood is, I may, or may not add additional walnut stain- thin- to even the color throughout the stock, before hand rubbing in my finish. Oh, I bone the wood after I stain, to close the grain, and give a hard finish to the wood that is hard to dent or dink. I find that by hand rubbing my oil finish into the wood, I get the desired result after 5 or more coats. I buff the finish between coats with a coarse cloth, heating the finish up to the point it is slightly tacky again, then let it cool off and dry again, before putting on the next coat. A coarse cloth will take out any bubbles in the last layer of finish, and, if done timely, can even take out and off little hairs or other lint that got stock to the stock finish during the drying process.

 

[dlemaster]

Yup! Oil based stain is the culprit.
You will need to remove as much of the oil in the wood as you can. Then maybe some of the spirit based stains can penetrate and get the color you want.
You can go to the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) site they have a very good section on refinishing old U.S. military gunstocks and how to deal with oil soaked wood and restaining.
Maybe that will help.

Regards, Dave

 

Ghost.........since you say the Linseed oil penetrates deep, wouldn't it make sense to use a linseed based stain?
The stock doesn't have any particularly attractive grain or figuring to it, so I don't need to enhance anything like that, just darken the stock to a real blackish brown so that you can maybe see just a little brown undertone.

Don't ask me why, that's just the way a musket should look in my minds eye

The problem is that the stains you need to use do not have an oil base and the oil will prevent their penetration into the wood.

You need to stain, then oil. Two seperate activities.

It was not all one operation in the old days. This is why some people can duplicate the old finishes and others never master it. It is also why modern chemical processes never look right on a recreated gun once you have seen an origional gun with origional finish.

 

[renovato]

And some of us can sand to perfection, use the best spirit stains that money can buy, get the best oil finish available, carefully apply in seperate steps...and STILL screw it up! :rotf: