smoothbore flintlock help!

[jerem0621]

Ok I bought a very very used smoothbore flintlock today. It has very few markings on it. The top of the barrel says "belgium". The gun is about 68 inches long. The barrel is 51 inches long. Take a peek at the pics and please help me identify what this thing is.

I had to stand on a chair to take the above pic.

left side plate.

Most interesting feature of this lock is the faint eagle. This looks to me like an American eagle holding arrows and wheat together in it's talons.

Please help. The action works but the parts are not lined up. Before I restore this thing into a shooter I want to know what do I have? btw I got this thing real cheap.

Thank a bunch,

Jerem0621

 

[Cmabie]

:wink: That gun was available in Stoeger's catalog many years ago. I think they sold for about $50-60. It dates back to when Belgium had colonies in Africa. These were the only types of guns allowed native populations. Notice that many of the parts are left over from 19th century percussion rifle muiskets, especially the back action Belgium musket lock which has the flaspan and flintlolck cock added to it. I have not seen one for the last 20 years or so. :hatsoff:

 

[54ball]

This is what I think you have.
A Belgian made export musket made as early as 1840 or as late as 1970??
I know that really narrows it down. :haha: But let me explain.

The back action lock most likely dates to the percussion era. These export muskets could be made in either flint or percussion using the same lock.
Belgium had a very active arms industry in the 19th Century and produced many types of guns, many inexpensively.
When a country, namely France needed arms quick and cheap, they would probably purchase an export musket like that.
It is very simular to the French muskets of the 1840s.
The eagle could denote German,Austrian,Hungarian, etc..,
Belgium also exported these arms to its possesions such as the Congo in Africa. These were imported to Africa as late as the 1920s??
When the rebirth of muzzleloading hit mainstream in the late 60s and early 70s many export muskets were built up using old parts. These were offered in gun magazines back then.
From what I see in the photos the wood looks to be of the 20th century.
I hope this gives you a direction to begin your research.
neat gun :thumbsup:

 

[jerem0621]

Awsome. Thanks for the reply. I have disassembled the rifle and it is nasty nasty. The guy I bought it from had it hung on the wall for the last four years. It has a lot of rust and gunk. The frizzen (spelling stinks) doesn't cover the flash pan so I have to search for a new frizzen that covers the flash pan. There is no touch hole bushing, only a touch hole. I'm really excited about getting this thing built back. The barrel is really long so I'm going to have to build a custom ramrod. The one with it has no provision for accessories. I think I'm going to try and brown the barrel and other fittings once I get them back to white.

Jerem0621

 

[Jumpshot]

Awsome. Thanks for the reply. I have disassembled the rifle and it is nasty nasty. The guy I bought it from had it hung on the wall for the last four years. It has a lot of rust and gunk. The frizzen (spelling stinks) doesn't cover the flash pan so I have to search for a new frizzen that covers the flash pan. There is no touch hole bushing, only a touch hole. I'm really excited about getting this thing built back. The barrel is really long so I'm going to have to build a custom ramrod. The one with it has no provision for accessories. I think I'm going to try and brown the barrel and other fittings once I get them back to white.

Jerem0621

There isn't a single misspelled word in your entire post. Your spelling is fine.

By the way, nice shoes. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Are you sure this gun is in good enough condition to be shot? The stock's shape is absolutely horrible. I thought that barrel was tied to a broom when I first looked at your dark picture. I don't know where you will find a piece of wood long enough to make a ramrod for that gun. If you contact October Country, or Cain's, they will make you a range rod in any length you need. The longest hickory rods I have seen anywhere were only 48 inches. There are some ways to add sections of wood to such rods, and if you look at footed arrows, you may get some good ideas of what might be involved. With today's epoxy glues, there is no reason that additional wood can't be added to a 48 inch shaft to get the desired ramrod length you would need for that gun.

Remember that they guns were sold to native hunters and trappers for sums, that represented much labor by those buyers. Even these poor guns were better than no gun at all. But these were people trained to throw spears, and hit their targets, and to use simple bows and arrows, without arrow rests, sights, pins, and aluminum or carbon fiber shafts for hunting. They hit what they aimed at or they and their families didn't eat. They learned to point these " guns" the same way they shot arrows from a bow. They did not need nor use sights. They were good enough woodsmen to be able to stalk close enough to the game that they had a better than average chance of killing the game with one shot.

The reason it was hanging on the wall for 4 years may just be that it IS a WALLHANGER!!! NO?

 

[oldarmy]

You never said what gauge it was??
Do you plan on shooting it?
I like it by the way. Do you think it's safe to shoot? It's hard to tell, not actualy seeing i. Do you think it is in good enought condition to fire?

 

[jerem0621]

To be honest, I'm not sure what guage this is. It's a lot bigger than my 50 cal balls. The guy I bought this from said it was a .62 cal, but I'm going to put the measure to it and make sure. (hey, new tool!) I have no idea if this thing is safe to shoot or not. There are no cracks or bulges in the barrel. I would think 50 gr would be ok. I would like to shoot it eventually. If It's just a wall hanger then that is fine. A near 6 foot gun would not be fun to carry much in the woods. It was just something I had never seen before and I just had to have it. I'm going to rework it reguardless. I may shorten the barrel and stock. I do know that the frizzen is not correct for this lock. The pan isn't even covered by the frizzen compleatly. Looks like I got a project on my hands. :v

Oh, thanks, my shoes are Sketchers. My shortness is evident in that first pic. :grin:

Jerem

 

[Mike Brooks]

To be honest, I'm not sure what guage this is. It's a lot bigger than my 50 cal balls. The guy I bought this from said it was a .62 cal, but I'm going to put the measure to it and make sure. (hey, new tool!) I have no idea if this thing is safe to shoot or not. There are no cracks or bulges in the barrel. I would think 50 gr would be ok. I would like to shoot it eventually. If It's just a wall hanger then that is fine. A near 6 foot gun would not be fun to carry much in the woods. It was just something I had never seen before and I just had to have it. I'm going to rework it reguardless. I may shorten the barrel and stock. I do know that the frizzen is not correct for this lock. The pan isn't even covered by the frizzen compleatly. Looks like I got a project on my hands. :v

Oh, thanks, my shoes are Sketchers. My shortness is evident in that first pic. :grin:

Jerem

GOOD GOLLY! Leave the poor thing alone. It has historical significance and should not be butchered.

 

[hthomso]

I agree that it is the type of Belgian made musket sold by Stoeger. I remember them from the early 1960's Shooter's Bible. They had several different models. One was a 4 guage "Elepant Gun" as well as I can remember. I believe Century Arms and DGW also carried them in their catalog for some time.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I wouldn't bother trying to make a shooter out of this gun. It just isn't worth it. In the forties and early fifties they sold for ten or fifteen dollars. They were meant for natives in Africa and were cheaply built and that is why some parts don't fit very well. I'd hang it on a wall and be glad I didn't pay much for it. Shooting one of these is for the very brave or the suicidal.

 

[jerem0621]

Mr. Brooks,

I shall heed your advice. A wall hanger it shall be. My father in law about flipped out when I suggested I may hack it up. Said I can't touch it lol.

Does anybody have any idea what something like this is worth?

Jerem

 

[jerem0621]

I just noticed the link to Auction Arms. Their starting price is $500. that is almost 4 times what I paid for mine. woo hoo. I think that one is in better shape but mine is a different model.

Jerem

 

[jerem0621]

one more question. Should I oil this thing down or just leave it as is?

Jerem

 

[oreclan]

Thanks Tex, I was looking for that site myself. They are asking for $500 to start ,but is it worth that or more? Not to me. During the bicentenial they were featured in almost every gun magazine and sold for well under $100. Can't recall, but I probably have a copy of the add around somewhere!
About 5 years ago at School of the Longhunter at Prickett's Fort , Fairmont ,WV. a preacher from Belle Vernon, PA had one. As I recall it was NOT a shooter!
Now a fowler with a 51 inch barrel-- that sounds a lot better! If it doesn't look safe don't shoot it. It's worth more just looking historic.
Ron

 

[Many Klatch]

Take the lock out, clean out the gunk, oil it well with a good oil. Clean the barrel well, then shoot it a couple of times with a light load so you can say that you shot it. Clean it again with soap and hotwater and then oil the barrel real good inside and out with a good oil. I use a 50% 2-stroke motor oil and 50% Kerosene that seems to protect the metal and last. Then hang it on the wall. Every once in a while reoil it.

It is a true relic and it should be cared for properly. It will shoot and it will hit the target. Being a Belgian barrel it is probably safe enough but I wouldn't shoot it a lot with heavy charges just to be safe.

Many Klatch

 

[hthomso]

Jerem, here is another link that discusses these Stoeger guns and reproduces the text of the ad associated with them. Brings back alot of memories.
[url] http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89167[/url]

 

[fluggies4]

In the modern blackpowder section of the 1975 Guns & Ammo Annual for 1975, a virtually identical model is listed as "Century Arms Inc. Flintlock or Percussion Model. Percussion in .72, flintlock in .56, barrel: flintlock in 30" or 50", percussion in 38". Price: $95.00"
The trigger guard is the only thing that is somewhat different.

 

[jerem0621]

Thanks everybody for the input. From what I've gathered from the link the lock on my gun is from the Napoleonic era and the barrel, stock, and other fittings are from Stoeger around 1940-1960 or from another Company. Would it be wrong for me to try and inlet the stock where the flash pan meets the barrel to get a tighter fit? I would like to make this thing go bang a time or two.

Thanks,

Jerem

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Thanks everybody for the input. From what I've gathered from the link the lock on my gun is from the Napoleonic era and the barrel, stock, and other fittings are from Stoeger around 1940-1960 or from another Company. Would it be wrong for me to try and inlet the stock where the flash pan meets the barrel to get a tighter fit? I would like to make this thing go bang a time or two.
The lock is a hodge-podge of parts. The rear half is a late percussion lock with a flint cock mounted on it. The pan section is a made up thing using odd left over bits from various flint locks. It really isn't worth trying to refit the parts of this gun, but it won't hurt anything to do it as there are lots of these guns around and they aren't very valuable. As for firing it, it's your body and your eyes and fingers. As long as you are well insured and and enjoy living dangerously, fire away.