Simple matchlock

[tom in nc]

This lone pic is on the Facebook Matchlock & Wheellock site. Apparently the serpentine and trigger lever pivots at the screw.
It is the most simple design, and the only example like it that I have seen. I wonder if it was common practice? I might use it in my build.

 

[TobJohn]

That’s from Lodgewood MFG. I have a very similar one they built, but in black and with a much uglier trigger bar.

I have yet to find any period art of this type, but it’s one of those things that feels like it has to exist. There are handgonnes with levers like this and period art of arquebuses with no lock, so someone probably put them together.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

They did exist, but usually the lower (maybe 2/3rds) leg of the serpentine was waaaaaaaaaaaay longer, like a good foot or more below the stock. This was on purpose ... for safety ... so that the heavier leg pulled the serpentine back, well away from the touch hole! Recall ... no pan cover on these fire locks! These also were more so done on the 'hand gonnes', before they became what one might call an arquebus.

Lodgewood has making a few MLocks that I can't find anything of historical precedence, which I don't get ... as Steve K. there typically researches his arms really well, as well as provides the historical provenance.

Concept Pic Only

This one was made by Eric Kettenburg

Allegedly she is a replica of an early 15th Century firearm. This gun is a 77-cal smoothbore with an ash tiller. The picture of a similar gun from 1411 is the oldest illustration of a serpentine lock firearm.

TIP - One can make one like above for < $200 from The Rifle Shoppe 75-cal hand gonne kit #793; you'll just need to fab your own tiller (stock/pole/lance).

 

[TobJohn]

Your examples are showing the problem I have come across. There are surviving handgonnes with trigger bars and large haakbus with them, but no examples of an arquebus with them, besides maybe the gunners from the Swiss chronicles of the Burgundian wars.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Maybe I should have clarified that my statement of "They did exist" was only meant for the long serpentine levers, not the shorter one from the Lodgewood example.

 

[TobJohn]

Maybe I should have clarified that my statement of "They did exist" was only meant for the long serpentine levers, not the shorter one from the Lodgewood example.

Even the long ones, I am still on a hunt for an arquebus with them. I have seen some nice replicas, but no originals.

That's my one complaint with the handgonnes book. The author confidently claims they exist and has a modern illustration of them at the fall of Constantinople (becasue the book also covers early arquebuses), but no solid proof.

Someone must have thought to attach a lever to something like this, particularly if they had already done it with tiller handgonnes.

 

[earlwb]

I think that the longer arm on the serpentine makes sense as you have a short arm on the clamp for the match cord but a long arm that you pull back on. Thus it makes it faster to pull and fire the gun. The guys back then knew about all of that fulcrum like stuff too.

 

[Commodore Swab]

They did exist, but usually the lower (maybe 2/3rds) leg of the serpentine was waaaaaaaaaaaay longer, like a good foot or more below the stock. This was on purpose ... for safety ... so that the heavier leg pulled the serpentine back, well away from the touch hole! Recall ... no pan cover on these fire locks! These also were more so done on the 'hand gonnes', before they became what one might call an arquebus.

Lodgewood has making a few MLocks that I can't find anything of historical precedence, which I don't get ... as Steve K. there typically researches his arms really well, as well as provides the historical provenance.

Concept Pic Only
View attachment 277729


This one was made by Eric Kettenburg
View attachment 277728

Allegedly she is a replica of an early 15th Century firearm. This gun is a 77-cal smoothbore with an ash tiller. The picture of a similar gun from 1411 is the oldest illustration of a serpentine lock firearm.

TIP - One can make one like above for < $200 from The Rifle Shoppe 75-cal hand gonne kit #793; you'll just need to fab your own tiller (stock/pole/lance).

Another available example already finished and American made.
https://veteranarms.com/Medieval-Handgonne-American-Hasta-Brand-p38010

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

@TobJohn - Michael Tromler wrote extensively about this original one - to your lower picture - circa 1410 ... as I'm making a shootable replace of it right now.

 

[TobJohn]

@TobJohn - Michael Tromler wrote extensively about this original one - to your lower picture ... as I'm making a shootable replace of it right now.

Sorry, to clarify, I included that as an example of a handgonne with a lever, to show there was period evidence of that type of firearm and that it should have been possible to use the “technology” of the lever on an arquebus, like the one above it in my post. The many surviving and artistic examples of handgonnes with levers is why it’s strange and frustrating that there are no examples of arquebuses with levers.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Duplicate ''' disregard

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... there are no examples of arquebuses with levers.

... maybe because we need to search for Hack Butts ... not Arquebuses!

I say this as a BP shooter - I am of further mind to believe that long 'S' serpentines would indeed have been added to 'Hakenbuchse' [hook or hack butt] fire locks, which preceded the bastardization of that term, which them became 'arquebus'.

Think about it - from a shooter's perspective - with the shorter stock of the hackbutt arm, and the hook to stabilize it [like when shooting off a rampart] ... with the forward hand also supporting the arm, it left the shooting hand free to ignite the arm. What better way than to also have a mechanism on the arm to slowly and deliberately drop the match into the pan?

Yet the most plausible reason for why no originals may exist ... might be that they were upgraded to become side-mounted snap lock arms?

 

[TobJohn]

... because you need to search for Hack Butts ... not Arquebuses!

I say this as a BP shooter - I am of further mind to believe that long 'S' serpentines would indeed have been added to 'Hakenbuchse' [hook or hack butt] fire locks, which preceded the bastardization of that term, which them became 'arquebus'.

Think about it - from a shooter's perspective - with the shorter stock of the hackbutt arm, and the hook to stabilize it [like when shooting off a rampart] ... with the forward hand also supporting the arm, it left the shooting hand free to ignite the arm. What better way than to also have a means to slowly and deliberately drop the match into the pan?

I mentioned those guns earlier in this thread (post 4), though I used the dutch “Haakbus” because I had momentarily forgotten hakenbusche. I am aware of surviving examples of that type of arm with the lever. It’s the full stocked and long barreled infantry guns that continue to be the mystery. We have evidence of the hackenbusche with levers existing alongside handgonnes with levers and the earliest arquebuses with no lock. That could be a good jumping off point to look though…

I just saw your edit. I think that is plausible.
Particularly strange is that even into the 1500s, there is art showing arquebuses lit by hand, such as the 1533 painting Siege of Alesia

The locks on these guns are hard to discern, but they almost look like wheellocks. The Siege of the City of Alesia - Melchior Feselen - Google Arts & Culture
It’s a 1533 propaganda painting depicting the HRE as Caesers Romans defeating the French Gauls, so there is a high probability of artistic license.

 

[tom in nc]

Another available example already finished and American made.
https://veteranarms.com/Medieval-Handgonne-American-Hasta-Brand-p38010

I believe this is the firearm Commodore Swab was referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Same basic principle as the one in my pic with longer lever. One of these would be an interesting project.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Yup

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

I just saw your edit. I think that is plausible.
Particularly strange is that even into the 1500s, there is art showing arquebuses lit by hand, such as the 1533 painting Siege of Alesia
View attachment 277843
The locks on these guns are hard to discern, but they almost look like wheellocks. The Siege of the City of Alesia - Melchior Feselen - Google Arts & Culture
It’s a 1533 propaganda painting depicting the HRE as Caesers Romans defeating the French Gauls, so there is a high probability of artistic license.

TobJohn: The fellas in the blue and especially orange outfits might be in for some recoil pain below the belt and a face full of smoke? Interesting though all are shooting straight from the lower torso location...much like our cowboy heros in old B&W tv shows...but they always shot the gun out of the bad guys hand! Like you said "artistic license"......

 

[TobJohn]

TobJohn: The fellas in the blue and especially orange outfits might be in for some recoil pain below the belt and a face full of smoke? Interesting though all are shooting straight from the lower torso location...much like our cowboy heros in old B&W tv shows...but they always shot the gun out of the bad guys hand! Like you said "artistic license"......

The weirdest part is that the hip firing is actually supported by other art and Michael Tromner stated that it was done.

I assume an uzi from the hip probably works better. I know I easily get side tracked, but a friend of mine and I have been watching a new 80s/early 90s action movie each week and have discussed how there is a direct correlation with the drop in good action movies and actors actually aiming with sights.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Oh my goodness...in this painting, an accidental discharge with those burning wicks or tripping over another..can only imagine the worst enemy is the one behind you! But you are correct about the movies, even my favorite Gunsmoke....Matt Dillon never aimed and always got his bad guy......

 

[TobJohn]

Oh my goodness...in this painting, an accidental discharge with those burning wicks or tripping over another..can only imagine the worst enemy is the one behind you! But you are correct about the movies, even my favorite Gunsmoke....Matt Dillon never aimed and always got his bad guy......

Capandball tries the hip fire around the 20 minute mark and it seems pretty pointless. Most period art of the Burgundian wars shows the soldiers aiming, so it does not seem to be an evolutionary step, doubly so because all these guns have sights.


I assume the formation in the most recent picture (battle of Pavia) is the artist trying to show a big group together and the reality would be slightly less crowded. I posted them in another thread, but there is other art from the period showing arquebusiers with their slow match wrapped around their arm, so maybe they took a very brave approach to accidentally igniting powder.

 

[Sam squanch]

I think the idea was to get a huge volume of lead balls flying in the general direction of the enemy, I don’t think deliberately aiming was encouraged in some cases. A few accidental deaths from friendly fire was acceptable, the ordinary soldier was probably considered a lower form of life anyway to the elite.