Shooting Armi Sport Enfield

[paulmarcone]

My experience with the Armi Sport Two-Band Enfield is that it shoots high at 50 yards. I was at the range yesterday and shot about 20 shots using 60 grains of Goex FFG and a conical. After several high shots, I was able to get a consistent grouping by aiming a bit lower.

Has anyone had a similar experience with this gun?

I have yet to try it at 100 yards. Will do so in the coming weeks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

While I don't know the history of that particular model, Military guns were traditionally sighted to shoot high at that close a range. Soldiers were told to aim at belt buckles at only 50 yards or closer! This allowed the rifle to hit a man sized target out to 200 yards and often beyond.

This practice regarding iron sight setting continued on into the cartridge era. My 1896 model Swedish Mauser has a rear sight where the lost range setting is 300 meter! At 100 yds, you aim at the heart. At 200 yds, you aim at the shoulders, and at 300 yds, you aim at the head. The cartridge is extremely flat shooting, with a terrific BC, so even at the modest velocity ( by today's standard ) of 2450 fps, a 140 grain 6.5 mm bullet would be expected to hit a man sized target at those long ranges easily. These early bolt action rifles saw the last of the trench warfare, where it was " Over the top, boys" and long lines of soldiers walking across the " no-man's land " toward the enemy in frontal assaults. When the machine gun became popular in the late 1890s, and proved to be devastating in the Great War, both tactics, and equipment on the battlefields had to be and were changed. But, bolt guns were still the order of the day through the 1930s. The Garand M-1 was the first battlefield rifle designed as a semi-auto rifle, and Gen. George S. Patton rightly proclaimed it to be the finest battle instrument in the world. At that time, it was. And it certainly eclipsed every small arm he had experienced in his entire life and military career to that date.

Sorry for the diversion, but sometimes its easier to under history and historical arms if you understand better what has followed. Oh, BTW, the Colt Peacemaker was set up to shoot a man off a horse at 75 yards, and always shot high at 25 yards, a range that many shooters today think is " long range". The same was true of several of the colt Percussion revolvers made during and before our Am. Civil War.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

The specs that you give are quite normal. I have friends that shoot that same rifle, and they merely use Kentucky Windage & Elevation at 50 yards offhand. You'll find that most of the time with the charge you illustrated behind that huge 500+ grain .58 conical, that it might be right on center at 100 yards, as the arc of the conical is considerable. Just remember to use 2-3 shots for sighters to get a group, then move the group by adjusting the point of aim.

Have fun and make smoke!

Dave

 

[skeet]

I forget the technical jargon right now, but your Enfield sights are designed this way: When shooting at 50 yards, put the front sight half way in the rear sight. When shooting 100 yards, put the whole front sight in the rear sight.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Your experience is typical, and Paul's explanation is valid.

You'll acheive much better accuracy with 42 grains of FFFG or 45 grains of FFG powder behind either a Lyman 575213OS (460 grain old style minie) or the Lyman 575213 (510 grain minie)
I shoot an 1858 Enfield 2 band with a Hoyt barrel and achieve single hole accuracy off a bench at 50 yards with 45 grains of 2F and the Lyman 575213 (510 grain) minie.

While other bullet and powder combinations may work well for you, I have yet to find an 1858 Enfield that doesn't perform well with it.

I will typically shoot a 5 shot group in the upper 40's with this combination. At my last regional skirmish I won the 50 yard individual competition with a 47X and took a 2nd place in the 100 yard individuals with a 46. I lost by an X.

To achieve optimum accuracy I'd recommend glass bedding the barrel, full length and have the lock tuned. I had my lock cobalted and was very happy with it. The tigger has a little more slop in it, but the trigger pull has been adjusted down to 4 pounds from the 12 pounds it was delivered with.The colbalt hardening will never wear, and I am thus assured of a consistent trigger pull. I'll shoot out the barrel before I wear the sear or tumbler.

I have an old Parker Hale Musketoon, which has a 6 pound pull which I also like and has proven to be trouble free.

Finally I would recommend replacing the relatively short front sight with a taller dovetailed version. If you are reluctant to dovetail the sight, ship your barrel off the Whiteacre in Winchester, VA. Better yet, for a few hundred dollars, replace the armisport barrel with one of Whiteacre's barrels, and you'll have a musket that will shoot with the best of them.

 

[jdstrang]

Iron Jim:

Could you lay on some details about this "cobalting" process? We in the N-SSA out here "west of the mountains" haven't heard much about it. Is it like case-hardening, or something else? can you do it with original internals, or oughtn't you to try? Who does it?

Thanks, and see you next week at the Fort!

BTW, for those of you who keep seeing N-SSA/skirmish references in these posts but have no idea what it's about, check the "Public Events" category under the "General Muzzleloading" group below in the Forums listing. I just posted links to next week's Nationals near Winchester, Va. If Civil War guns are your thing, it's the one place to be next week!

 

[rebel727]

I've got an Armi Sport 3 band Enfield and I had to do some filing on the rear sight to get it on target laterally but yeah it shoots a tad high at 50 yds. with 70-90 grs. of powder(no difference in accuracy but definitely more punch with 90 grs) and an original style Minie. However the sights are dead on from 200 yds on. Mine shoots minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yds.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Hey Pappa Bear. I didn't make the nationals last year, and I won't make them this year, for the same &^!@#$ reason. Work! Last year I was working for a promotion, and this year I got it. (I love the N-SSA, but let's be honest, there's a whole lot of folks in it who don't understand the concept of overtime and think that working for a raise interferes with skirmishing. :rotf: )

All that said I sent my musket down to Winchester last fall with a team mate to get the cobalt treatment. Rob Lewis of Tri L Machine did it, and I believe he sets up next to the NRA hut by the creek.

Never having seen it done,my team mate told me that the process can'tbe viewed through a mask, but is done in a sealed box, fitted with a video camera relayed to a monitor. Perhaps the light is so intense that it can't be viewed on anything but a monitor.

Sounds pretty high tech for 145 year old guns. I don't know how he did it, or what the process entails, but I can tell you the results are excellent.

I've got a James River 2 band that has been a great regional match winner for me. I love the James River guns, but the locks are typical euro-trash. You can shoot the guns fairly well out of the box, (despite the heavy trigger pull) but with a good trigger job it is so much nicer.

Check him out when you're down there. According to my team mate it wasn't easy to get the work done because so many people want a lock job. If you'll be there early next week, see him early to insure you get your gun back when you need it.

If I don't become CEO by this time next year, I will hopefully see you at the '08 fall nationals.

 

[ResearchPress]

My experience with the Armi Sport Two-Band Enfield is that it shoots high at 50 yards.

Does your rifle have a 50 yard sight setting? The lowest my original Enfields have is 100 yards.

The elevation of the foresight in the rearsight notch when aiming at 50 yards just needs lowering to take account of the shorter distance. Under British musketry instruction regulations soldiers were taught to aim with a half-sight, ie. foresight tip half way between shoulders and base of rearsight. Soldiers were to use variations in placement of foresight (full sight - half sight - fine sight) to fine tune aim.

David

 

[smokeblower]

My z shoots high with more than 45g of fffg Goex. The same results with ffg with more of a mess in between shots. Try the Lee.575-500g Original style mini with a bees wax - olive oil lube. This combination works for target and field loads. No need to lube the hollow base, the Lee cast do not keyhole. The use of the boxwood plugs in the Civil War era .58's was to prevent corrosion. Old schoolers though it aided in expansion. I wish someone would recast the Gardner .58's with the steel cup insert. Of the hundreds I have seen in collections, I have never seen one that keyholed.

 

[paulmarcone]

My 2-band Enfield is sighted for 100 yards and up.

I will try using 45 grains of FFG. I've never used less than 55 grains, so I am anxious to try it out at 45 grains.

I will report back once. I will try to get to the range this week.

Thanks guys for all your helpful recommendations!

Attached is a scan of the target.

 

[paulmarcone]

Oh, and here's a shot of the rifle in question...