seeking info/ pictures of this J. S. Hawken half stock rifle

[thatoneguy82]

As the title states, I am seeking info and more extensive photos if any exist for the rifle shown below, I found them online but can't remember where and have been unable to relocate the source. It is marked J. S. Hawken on the barrel but has many atributes not typically associated with their rifles based on my admittedly limited observations. This however appears to have a short trigger bar, an english scroll guard thst mounted with screws rather than the expected threaded lug, it also appears to have a rather short tang given the location of the eliptical inlay in the wrist. If anyone can help shed more light on this rifle it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Metalshaper]

The guy you wanna talk to Don Stith! from what I gather he has one of the most extensive collections of Hawken rifles and probably has done more to research and document them, than anybody..
Over on the ALR site..

Respect Always

 

[Rifleman1776]

No expert here.
But, I can tell you two things for sure.
1: Interesting rifle.
2: I know the man who currently owns the slanted 'S' Hawken stamp. And, that stamp has been used on several rifles built by him in the last 30 years or so. Do not accept that stamp as absolute evidence.

 

[thatoneguy82]

Thank you, email has been sent to Mr. Stith

Rifleman,
Thanks for the words of warning, luckily my stakes are low because its something I intend to recreate to the best of my ability and not an investment in antique iron.

 

[galamb]

That rifle is in the possession of the Montana Historical Museum.

It has a 38" barrel and is estimated to be a 54 caliber.

If Herb is around perhaps he can add a few details. I believe he has actually handled this rifle.

 

[LaBonte]

Here's a bit more info on the Mt Historical Society -

The so-called Peterson rifles at the BBHC is built similarly with a short tang and trigger guard.
Link to Peterson Rifle

 

[thatoneguy82]

Thanks for the lead guys.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, galamb. You are right on top of things. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1316651/

 

[Herb]

So, KH, did you hear from Don Stith anything you can share with us?

 

[thatoneguy82]

I did, he said he knew a man who had handled the rifle in question and verified it as an early J.S. Hawken. It has apparently suffered some water damage in its past that accounts for the pitting on patch box, toe plate, and butt plate. Also has an English type flintlock hooked breech with a forge welded bolster on the barrel. He estimated it was about the same vintage as the Pederson Hawken. Very helpful fellow.

 

[greggholmes]

Original Hawken Rifle Examples

 

[Rifleman1776]

knew a man who had handled the rifle in question and verified it as an early J.S. Hawken

Regardless of who "a man" might be such things are often not the final word.
The person I know who owns the original crooked 'S' Hawken stamp is also a builder of Hawkens. He once saw a review of a newly discovered original by John Baird published in American Rifleman. My friend called AR and told them the rifle in question had been built by him a dozen years ago. Not original despite being authenticated by very knowledgable John Baird. Some folks are that good.
BTW, I knew Baird also. This was a huge blow to his reputation.

 

[thatoneguy82]

I'm working on getting in touch with the firearms curator at the Montana History Museum and see how long its been in their collection among other things.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

I don't want to hijack this tread, but the picture of the muzzle of this rifle puzzles me. Was this the type of rifling the Hawkens used for all of their rifles or did they employ different types?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm working on getting in touch with the firearms curator at the Montana History Museum and see how long its been in their collection among other things.

Yes. Authentication and documentation are difficult and controversial subjects.

 

[galamb]

I don't want to hijack this tread, but the picture of the muzzle of this rifle puzzles me. Was this the type of rifling the Hawkens used for all of their rifles or did they employ different types?

The Hawken brothers had their own rifling machine. It was (may still be) in the possession of the Missouri historic society. Back in the 1960's they allowed a couple of (engineers - my memory is fading) to examine it.

They took some pictures, made some diagrams and studied the "working" of it.

So IF the barrel was made by the brothers, or Sam alone (after Jake's death) then it would have been cut with a 7 groove, 1:48 right hand twist, slightly rounded grooves being 10-14 "papers" in depth (paper shims were used to adjust the cutting depth after each successive pass).

Some/many/a few had the muzzle "relieved" (what we would call "coning") to ease loading.

I won't prolong the description on this thread because it's a whole subject in and of itself.

Would be best to start another thread if you really want to discuss the rifling.

 

[galamb]

Original Hawken Rifle Examples

And to bolster the comments on "experts".

The very first Hawken rifle shown in the link - the one noted to be the "earliest St. Louis Hawken" is in dispute.

A very knowledgeable Hawken expert who was working at the Hawken shop when this rifle came into their possession has stated that he "clearly remembers" the rifle "before" it was a Hawken.

Since I have no personal knowledge I will leave it at that.

With anything as "historically important" to (our) community, sometimes "wishing something is true", turns into fact without any true malicious intent.

 

[Herb]

Here is the muzzle of the Jim Bridger rifle. The Kit Carson rifle is also done this way. In Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III, Western U.S.", he has photos of 33 Hawkens. Though it is hard to tell the muzzle treatment, I think 14 are similar to this photo, I don't think 16 are, but some may be coned. Three do not have muzzle photos. Then of the small caliber St. Louis rifles, I think one is treated as here and four are not. So they are what they are, few alike.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Herb,
Thank you for the info on the rifling!

 

[Herb]

Thank you for your appreciation. It is more than can be said for KH. He did not even acknowledge he had received the information asked for, let alone thank those who posted it. Same on another forum on which he posted this same question. This is common. Frequently people will not even respond when given answers to their queries, some of which people put a lot of effort into.