rock smasher with no spark, lock help, opinions

[old ugly]

this is the lock that came with my gun kit, I could not get it to work and spark properly. I sent it back to the manufacturer who told me the frizzen was cracked and said he replaced the frizzen and tested it and it works perfect, he said just remember to put the flint in upside down.
I tried lots of different sizes of flints installed at as many ways as I could and it still no spark and smashed flints.
I finally gave up on it and bought an L&R and fit it into the rifle. which worked perfect.
But I am back looking at this lock again and want to make it work. the frizzen spring is quite stiff but I think maybe the frizzen has been installed incorrectly. if you have any ideas on how I can make it work please let me know.
thanks
ou tom

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
There could be many things including the frizzen is not hardened and tempered properly. It is clear from your photos that flints must be used bevel down. It also appears to me that the maker did almost nothing to clean up and polish the cast parts and fit them. To me that lock is only partially finished and needs fitting, polishing, and tuning. I'll bet the frizzen spring and mainspring are not balanced in any way. The geometry of the mainspring is wrong. The lower leaf should not bend up from the middle at full cock. It should be straight. It looks like the frizzen may be installed too far back because the pan and the pan cover notch are not aligned. I think the lock has potential but it needs to be worked over. No lock should ever be used on a gun right out of the box. They all need polishing and tuning to make them work up to their potential.

dave

 

[plmeek]

old ugly, I agree. The fizzen does not appear to fit correctly. It looks to me like it is oversize for that lock. I'm surprised at the poor quality of the fit and finish of that lock. Did you get it directly from John Clark of Clark Industries? I had always heard good things about him and his products, and this lock does not match his reputation.

I'm not sure you can do anything with that frizzen to make the lock better. The face of the frizzen is clearly too far back or too close to the cock. The cover part of the frizzen doesn't look too bad in the outside view, but your photo of the inside of the lock really shows how far off the frizzen fit is. I think the pivot screw for the frizzen is drilled off center based on the external view, too.

John Clark has retired and shut down his business [http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca/], so I don't think he will be any help to you.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Looks like an L&R Durrs Egg frizzen.

 

[Rifleman1776]

My eye is only about 1/2% as well trained as Dave for lock correctness. But, I did spot that the frizzen is all wrong for that lock. And the whole lock looks like rough assembled parts waiting for proper finishing and tune up. That has to be a disappointment.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

this is the lock that came with my gun kit, I could not get it to work and spark properly. I sent it back to the manufacturer who told me the frizzen was cracked and said he replaced the frizzen and tested it and it works perfect, he said just remember to put the flint in upside down.
I tried lots of different sizes of flints installed at as many ways as I could and it still no spark and smashed flints.
I finally gave up on it and bought an L&R and fit it into the rifle. which worked perfect.
But I am back looking at this lock again and want to make it work. the frizzen spring is quite stiff but I think maybe the frizzen has been installed incorrectly. if you have any ideas on how I can make it work please let me know.
thanks
ou tom

Dave hit the nail square on the head. For starters, to make the lock function, I would get a frizzen that "fits" and adjust it's spring for balance. That should at least get you some spark.
Flintlocklar

 

[old ugly]

the lock came as a finished functioning lock. i got it from Clarke.
I have the TOW catalogue with the actual size parts pictured and I think the L&R durs egg lock is very close to the same.
I think i'll order a frizzen , it says undrilled for the pivot screw, then I can position it correctly.
the cock (hammer)looks to be the same shape so I'm thinking he copied it from L&R and that angle Is hopefully correct.
The next question is about the frizzen spring it is a brute, what is the best way to reduce the force it has. or should I buy an L&R spring at the same time?
ooh and one more Q how to temper the frizzen once I have it fitted?
thanks for the help on this
tom
ou

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

the lock came as a finished functioning lock. i got it from Clarke.
I have the TOW catalogue with the actual size parts pictured and I think the L&R durs egg lock is very close to the same.
I think i'll order a frizzen , it says undrilled for the pivot screw, then I can position it correctly.
the cock (hammer)looks to be the same shape so I'm thinking he copied it from L&R and that angle Is hopefully correct.
The next question is about the frizzen spring it is a brute, what is the best way to reduce the force it has. or should I buy an L&R spring at the same time?
ooh and one more Q how to temper the frizzen once I have it fitted?
thanks for the help on this
tom
ou

I would try reducing the strength of the frizzen spring first, before purchasing another. To do this I suggest thinning the lower leg by grinding or sanding, as long as you do the removal parallel to the leg. Never cross ways, as that can cause fracture. Polish all tooling marks to smooth. How much removal is the 64 dollar question. I would take a small amount and try, then more if you are not satisfied. When I am in doubt, I like to take it slow and sneak up on my result.
Harden the frizzen by uniformly heating to 1500 deg (this is bright red) and then quickly quenching in a quart or so of light weight oil (never water) moving parts slowly around in oil until cool. If hard it will not file.
Temper the hardness………heat 1 hour in oven at 375 deg (62-64 Rockwell C)

Good luck, & keep us posted
Flintlocklar

 

[old ugly]

To do this I suggest thinning the lower leg by grinding or sanding, as long as you do the removal parallel to the leg. Never cross ways, as that can cause fracture. Polish all tooling marks to smooth.
Good luck, & keep us posted
Flintlocklar[/QUOTE]

Flintlocklar, by the lower leg do you mean the area where it anchors to the lock plate or the area just before camroller bump ?
thanks
ou
tom

 

[old ugly]

[QUOTE="dave_person, The geometry of the mainspring is wrong. The lower leaf should not bend up from the middle at full cock. It should be straight.
dave[/QUOTE]

dave_person,
I can change this angle slightly by relocating the mainspring anchor hole about 1/8" lower on the plate, but I see no other way to change that angle.
any suggestions?
thanks
ou
tom

 

[54ball]

Sometimes being a true gentleman is knowing when to bail.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

To do this I suggest thinning the lower leg by grinding or sanding, as long as you do the removal parallel to the leg. Never cross ways, as that can cause fracture. Polish all tooling marks to smooth.
Good luck, & keep us posted
Flintlocklar

Flintlocklar, by the lower leg do you mean the area where it anchors to the lock plate or the area just before camroller bump ?
thanks
ou
tom[/QUOTE]
Wow, did I ever have a senior moment!! (LOL) I meant the upper leg. I was talking frizzen spring and thinking main spring. Sorry for my dumb
Flintlocklar

 

[dave_person]

[QUOTE="dave_person, The geometry of the mainspring is wrong. The lower leaf should not bend up from the middle at full cock. It should be straight.
dave

dave_person,
I can change this angle slightly by relocating the mainspring anchor hole about 1/8" lower on the plate, but I see no other way to change that angle.
any suggestions?
thanks
ou
tom[/QUOTE]
Hi Tom,
The pictures below correct geometry for the mainspring. I would not recommend drilling a new peg hole. Instead, the way to correct it is to heat the main spring bend to bright red hot, then hammer the bend to compress it a little. Then hold the spring in a vise at the bend and heat the lower leaf of the spring to red hot. Grab the hook in pliers and gently bend the lower leaf downward in a slight even arc. This is called "preload". Then the spring is polished and heated bright red hot and quenched in warm canola oil. Clean off the oil, polish again, and temper at 750 degrees for 1 hour. floating the spring in a lead melting pot at 700-750 degrees will do the job as well.

 

[old ugly]

dave_person,
Hi Tom,
The pictures below correct geometry for the mainspring.

dave
looks like I have a bit of a project on the go. And the only way I'm gonna learn is by digging in and doing it. gathering the info and trying to do this stuff, not having someone to actually show you how is a hard way to learn.
pictures you sent are great.
I want to thank you again for all your help, its great.
thanks
ou
tom
PS the refinish on the gunstock you helped me with turned out awsum. way better looking.

 

[dave_person]

Hi 54Ball,
That is a great painting. I believe it is Douglas Bader bailing out of his Spitfire. Bader was an RAF hero and he had 2 artificial legs because of a flying accident in the 1930s. When he bailed, he lost both prosthetics. The painting shows him struggling to get free when his artificial legs caught on pedals and seat in the cockpit. British airman dropped artificial legs off to the Germans who gave them to Bader. He was a guest and later a personal friend of one of the greatest German pilots, Adolf Galland.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

The L&R Durs Egg is based on Tony Clark’s lock. It can be a very good lock. I use a thin flint, bevel down. You’ve got good advice above. Fact is, a minute in hand is worth a hundred pictures and thousands of words. It’s hard to tell from here.

 

[54ball]

Hi 54Ball,
That is a great painting. I believe it is Douglas Bader bailing out of his Spitfire. Bader was an RAF hero and he had 2 artificial legs because of a flying accident in the 1930s. When he bailed, he lost both prosthetics. The painting shows him struggling to get free when his artificial legs caught on pedals and seat in the cockpit. British airman dropped artificial legs off to the Germans who gave them to Bader. He was a guest and later a personal friend of one of the greatest German pilots, Adolf Galland.

dave

OK...
Bader was the pilot that the Germans worked with the British through the Red Cross to get Bader some new legs sent from Britain. Unfortunately for the Germans, as soon as Bader got his new legs he was involved in several escape attempts. I do believe he wound up in that mountain castle (escape proof prison) where at wars end, the POWs were building a glider in the attic to fly out of that place...

My reason for suggesting a "bail out"....

I believe that lock is thrown together. In my past career fields, one of my specialties was trying to fix or pick up the pieces from other's mistakes and or poor work. Those guys made their money and have moved on to screw up more stuff at other places while the "fixers" pay the price, not only in the aggravating work involved but the stress and getting the blame...no good deed goes unpunished.

It would have been so refreshing to start with something reasonably straight from the get go!

I remember these Clarke sets advertised years ago. They looked like quality stuff. Unfortunately this looks like a "Last run" where stuff is thrown together.(maybe put together after the correct frizzen castings were gone and a incorrect replacement was shoehorned in) My opinion is the frizzen is not the right casting. My question is. What is? The axis hole is not the main problem...the whole casting looks to be wrong. This makes me think he needs to find a suitable frizzen and that maybe ordering a new Durs Egg frizzen does not address the fundamental problem....

I think old ugly can get some practice but I do not know how successful this will end up. My thoughts are if he want's to get some "lock time" maybe a Blackely set, a set from Jack Brooks or a Rifle Shoppe set of castings may be the way to go as far as investment of time and winding up with a good product in the end.

 

[old ugly]

OK...

My reason for suggesting a "bail out"....

I believe that lock is thrown together.


QUOTE]

54Ball absolutely correct... but I want to at least give I a try.
with the help I have received here it may happen and if not I will only be out the price of the frizzen and roller and my time.
this lock has eat up so many flints and had so many misfires I cant let it beat me now.........

 

[54ball]

I wish you the best...you have it,might as well give it try. I wonder if there is enough material in the frizzen to re shape it a good bit of it?

 

[old ugly]

I don't think there is any fixing this frizzen, it dosent seam to be cast correctly.
maybe I could grind down the bottom of the frizzen face then cut out the pan cover with a rotory file. It needs to go forward about 1\16" that may end up going into the cover.
I ordered a durs egg l&r hoping that is is closer fit.