• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Reduced loads using SWISS

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

wire

32 Cal.
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
I came across a good deal on some swiss 2f the other day A friend told me that I would have to use reduced loads in my Hawken because swiss is hotter than goex is this true my normal load for round ball is 80 to 90 grains.Thompson Center says my rifle has a max charge of 120 grains for black powder is swiss that much more potent than goex or am I being fed a lot of hot air.Is a120 grain charge of 2f swiss any different than a 120 grain charge of 2f goex other than I have heard that swiss burns cleaner. :confused:
 
I shoot only with swiss bp ,because Goex is hard to find in Germany.Swiss is cleaner and faster.You can reduce your loads about 10%-15%.When you look at Goex it is really black.Swiss is more black-gray.
:hatsoff:
 
58 Boomer: Swiss powder do burn faster than our Goex brand. And, the numbers don't correspond to our system of identification. Swiss 1 1/2 is the equivalent to our Goex FFg powder. Swiss #2 powder is the equivalent of our FFFg powder. So be careful in choosing powders, changing them, and using anything near a maximum charge. Since you don't tell us which Swiss powder you bought, I recommend that you reduce the charge by 15 % at minimum, and work up from there to find an equivalent load to what your gun is sighted in to shoot. Use a Chronograph to do this, or you won't learn much before you have shot half your new powder supply! If you don't own one, borrow one, or buy one. The Chrony costs less than $100. In most cases you can find an accurate load using only about 60 grains of Goex FFg in a .50 cal., and 70 grains using a .54 cal. gun. Shooting a steady diet of 80 and 90 grains of powder is hard on the gunstock, and sometimes on the shooter. Shooting maximum charges of 120 grains of powder is almost silly. Most of the barrels on these guns are too short to burn all the powder, unless you are shooting TC's maxiballs. For a reference, remember that most of the buffalo that were shot were killed with guns like the .45-70, or .50-70. The largest cartridge made for the Sharps rifle, was the .50-140- 550. Don't try to make a long range buffalo gun out of your TC hawken.

I once was spending part of a lunch hour in the local sporting goods store when a huge man walked and asked the owner if he knew where he could find someone to " build him a Left Handed Hawken " rifle. He went on to say that he was shooting a friends .50 cal. Hawken and it kicked the snot out of him. The owner didn't know anything about Black powder rifles, so he told the man to talk to me. I asked him what load he was shooting and he said,
" 150 grains ". I asked him what powder? " He said, " 3F". I asked him what projectile? He said, " the Maxiball ". I put my hand out and offered to shake his hand. He hesitated and asked me why? I told him I wanted to shake that hand because it was still attached to his body, and it was a credit to the competence of Thompson Center, that they could build a gun that would take that kind of punishment without coming apart.! He told me some clerk in another store gave him that load when he and his buddy bought the gun. This guy was f'5" tall, and weighed over 300 lbs. He had hands that were huge! But he was putting that hooked buttplate into his shoulder, rather on his arm( they were too big around to fit, he said, and I believed him) so he got hurt shooting it. I told him to reduce that load to 60 grains, using FFg powder, and a Patch round ball and the gun would last longer, and he would enjoy shooting it. I did give him information about contacting the NMLRA so he could get Muzzle Blasts and find a gun maker in the classified ads.
 
The swiss I bought is ffg and of the dozen or so people that I have talked to most of whom have been muzzlelading far longer than I have are giving me different answers. To tell you the truth it seems to be a 50-50 split as far as advice gos some reduce loads some dont I guess I will ask a few more and try to draw a conclusion on my own. All in all I guess that it cant be that much difference in the two after all swiss was available before TC made my Hawken and if it was possible to cause a problem they would state it in the loading section of the book that came with the rifle. I understand that they test the gun to absolute failure and then recomend top loads based on that info just incase someone uses the wrong type of powder fffg in place of ffg and vice versa or to much powder by accident so the gun is far stronger than listed safty precautions and all. At least that is how it was described to me by the local gunsmith. Thanks for the answers. :hatsoff:
 
Swiss burns faster than Goex. Your 80-90 grain charge is fine, but you might need to reduce it slightly to get the same accuracy, since Swiss will shoot a little faster. As for the 120 grain max. That'd be fine for Goex, but as the others have suggested, reducing it 15% or so, is a good idea for safety.

So yeah, a load of Swiss IS different than a load of Goex. It's a great powder though. It's more consistent and cleaner. I prefer it over Goex by a large margin, but end mostly shooting Goex because it's cheaper.
 
Swiss powder and ballistic strength

When the Swiss switched from tin cans to plastic bottles they also increased the "strength"of the powder.

Test rifle is a .50 caliber Lyman Trade Rifle with a 28" barrel. Percussion ignition, CCI #11 Magnum caps. .490 Speer balls, .018" #40 cottob drill with Lehigh Valley lube. Chronograph 15 feet from the muzzle.

Swiss 2Fg, Lot #001, Date Code 111.199 (in tin cans)
60 grs. - 1432 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1699 fps ave.

Swiss 2Fg, Lot 1-1002, Date Code 06-01 (in plastic bottles)
60 grs. - 1504 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1763 fps ave.

Compared to GOEX at that time.

GOEX 2Fg, 01JA15B
60 grs. - 1284 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1480 fps ave.

GOEX 2Fg, 01OC05B
60 grs. - 1317 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1494 fps ave.

GOEX 2Fg, 02MA04B
60 grs. - 1358 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1526 fps ave.


KIK 2Fg, imported in May 2000
60 grs. - 1330 fps ave.
80 grs. - 1543 fps ave.
 
The last word on this subject. I talked to the importers of swiss and Thompson center and was told to load as normal just do not go above a 120 grain charge that is recomended and I will be fine thanks for the info. :thumbsup:
 
Boomer,

You spoke to Jim Kirkland, the Swiss and Schuetzen importer. A long-time buddy of mine. I do testing for him. When he went to WANO for the Schuetzen powder I was drafted to instruct WANO in what changes were needed in their powder to be more competitive in the U.S. market.

I can tell you from experience that if you fire a 120 grain charge of Swiss 2Fg in a .50 with a patched ball the recoil will be awesome. Over 2000 fps out of the muzzle. Bruised shoulder. If you press you cheek against the stock your vision may be blurred for a few minutes.

The Investarms and T/C patent breech barrels will take some pretty hefty powder charges. But large charges rarely give good accuracy.

Play with different size powder charges in the range of 70 to 80 grains and look at accuracy. Shot placement is a bit more important than velocities. For hunting you want to find the compromise load where you balance useable accuracy with sufficient velocity at the range you will expect to be shooting at.

Chronograph data is interesting but velocities alone do not put meat on the table.
 
Dont get me wrong I have no intention of using 120 grain charges in my 58. cal Hawken. I just wanted to get some info on the subject because I couldnt seem to get a straight answer every body had something different to say on the subject. When you get told everything from you dont have to reduce your charge to if you load by the book youll blow yourself up. To much gray area for me so I got it straight from the horses mouth. I will continue to use my normal 80 to 90 grain load and adjust my sights for the increase in velocity. Again thanks to all who responded. :hatsoff:
 

Latest posts

Back
Top