Questions on purchasing a new muzzleloader

[arizona_brigade]

Hi,

I tried posting this once but it never showed up....

I am a first time poster and I am hoping I am posting this in the correct area because it is sort of a general question.

I am looking to purchase a black powder rifle that would be appropriate to western fur trade or trapper era. I am not new to black powder shooting. In fact I was a civil war reenactor for about 15 years and 10 of that in what would be striving for very authentic recreations or "hard core" reenacting doing Civil War Living History. But when Kids came along it got more and more difficult to keep up with and time became a premium. As the kids got older I realized traveling to Tn & Ga two or three time a year was not an option and I have since sold off all my black powder rifles and muskets and only have one pistol left (1849 pocket revolver).

Anyway now that my son is approaching 12, I want to get into something with him that doesn't involve a gaming system, computer or screen. I told him perhaps we would take up black powder shooting and hunting and see where it leads. I was a history major in college so I try to lean toward historical accuracy and so I am getting more and more troubled my my research. Reason being the more I look the more inaccuracies I find in some of the cheaper models so getting something historically correct comes with a price tag.

After searching I have come to value price point with TVM (Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading). Living in the southwest I want something that would be historically accurate to the area I live in so I figured looking at something that falls in line with the Rocky Mountain Fur trader. Researching would lead me to something like a flintier but other than that I am kind of at a loss as to which one. I am thinking a Southern or Tennessee Rifle or a Leman. I would like to use this for hunting as well as joy shooting for now with my son. If he is into it we may go further with it. I actually have always preferred shooting black powder to modern cartridge weapons because I did it for so long. Never have done flintlock though.

Seeing that a good quality rifle is not cheap I have been tempted buy a kit form to cut some of the costs down but don't want to get into a situation where 1) I butcher a good quality gun kit because it is over my head 2) or be in for a good investment in tools where I would have just been better off to order a completed poorboy and been done with it.

I am tempted to be cheap and order the Lyman GPR in flint but leery to order a an import flintlock weapon and have to give it hours of work to make it field worthy. Also will I always be lusting after one I wanted in the first place.

So I am turning to some of you here who have been in this situation. Again, I am not new to black powder rifles. I shot many civil war era muskets and rifles, many that had been reworked with correct stampings etc. So here is a recap of my basic questions:

1) what would be the most common weapon used about mid fur trade era in the southwestern US or Rockies. Southern or Virginia rifle type or Leman type?

2) am I better off in the long run going for a complete rifle or kite if I go with custom maker (my skills in gun finishing ar limited to sanding, browning, cold bluing, staining, oiling - (inletting is questionable)

3) If I got a Lyman GPR kit or gun would I always be lusting after a better rifle in six months and piss off the wife with a second rifle purchase! This ain't my first rodeo!

Thanks for any direction.


Rich Saathoff

 

[Swede50]

Check out http://www.flintlocks.com/ he is not cheap but there is information on each flintlock and a picture of the completed rifle or pistol.

 

[biliff]

If you're looking for "common" or most likely then stick with the trade guns. Leman, Henry, Dickert for rifles or any common smoothbore Tradegun.

We tend to over romanticize the lone fur trapper from back east making his fortune in the fur trade. It was a business, the trappers were employees and either purchased or were issued company guns, supplies, etc.. Look at company records for operations in your particular area and see what they were ordering and from who.

 

[will5a1]

Goggle Mike Lange muzzleloaders and give his western trade rifle a look, and you could also pickup at a reasonable price one of his "rugrat" guns for your son.

 

[George T.]

There are worse places to start than the GPR. If you shop around you can get a real deal. I bought my cap lock GPR for $325 on Gun Broker. The next step is $1,000 to $1,200 and from there the sky is the limit. I have read nothing here about the GPR flinter requireing a lot of work to obtain reliability.

Good luck in your search. Geo. T.

 

[daniel collums]

building a $300. one from a kit even if its just a traditions kentucky or a hawken percussion type rifle or buying one off from someone here or another auction site with your kid and giving it to him as his first is a good id. you both can enjoy the fun of sanding and fitting or bidding and winning one thats ready to shoot. and then after he gets to where he knows how to handle it then you can get that gun you always wanted for yourself.

 

[buzz]

I suggest a GPR lynman kit as a father son prodject
You can also buy an older one and refinish it together ina few evenings and go shooten you can always upgrade if the bug hits yoou both
I personaly remember my dad and myself doing a few CVA kits together and over the years i have upgraded but dad is happy with the old CVA's they are good cheap shooters

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Take a look at his Late Flintlock Period rifle. I think it is very representative of Fur Trade period rifle. In my opinion you would not be happy with a TVM product.

Clay Smith

 

[arizona_brigade]

You know I really would like to get one of those custom guns but I think when all said and done I would be $1500 + and then some. I need to not lose perspective, that I am getting my son into it and the more I think about it a half stock kit (and probably in percussion) might be what is probably realistic for getting my son into it. There is going to be a lot of accessories too...

To keep it to local history of my area most people in my area had settled the Gila River basin (Arizona/New Mexico) in the late 1840s and 1850s. So I am assuming that the most common rifle would have been some sporting rifle in either half or full stock or a shotgun. So perhaps the Lyman GPR Rifle would be a good start or representation of this type of long arm.

Maybe if it takes I can justify getting dad one of the nicer flinters later on. You think this is good start?

 

[Wes/Tex]

I agree with the comment, above, that the trade type rifles would probably have been the most common in your area. Besides the "buy & trade" sections here or elsewhere, places like Track Of The Wolf have new & used guns for sale. Even if these sites don't offer a piece in your price range, they may prove beneficial in deciding on exactly what you'd like to get. Good luck.

 

[Rat Trapper]

From the rifle I have seen made my TVM, they appear to be very nice rifles. Round Ball has several and is very happy with them, maybe he will post on this. Or you could send him a PM. For the kid, a used TC Hawken in good condition would be a good place to start. I wouldn't buy a $1200 plus rifle for a kid to start out with. If you take your time and do some looking around I am sure you can find a lightly used TC for a very reasonable price. We see them often listed on here. The TC can be used for a while and later sold for what you paid for it.

 

[Robby]

Arizona, Good on you for getting involved with your son!!!! Not enough of that these days.
Its hard to say without a more complete picture of your circumstances, but before I started making them myself, I got a fairly good flintlock for myself, because I knew I was in it for keeps, and fairly inexpensive flintlock for my boys, because I wasn't sure it would take, It did :grin: . Best of luck in your search :hatsoff:
Robby

 

[arizona_brigade]

I appreciate all the advice here. Like I said I originally I am not new to blackpowder shooting. I was heavily involve din CW living history for around 15 years. I did extensive research into the area of the Confederate Sharpshooters of the CW. If you have never read Lee's Sharpshooters, it is fascinating read into the evolution of modern military tactics which eventually led to in the necessity of trench warfare by late civil war. I believe this was because of the effectiveness of the skirmish tactics of the elite corps of sharpshooters the Confederacy came up with. I have original sharpshooter manual written by Cadmus Wilcox Rifles and Rifle training as well. For the longest time I wanted a 5 grove heavy barrel 2 band (Army or Navy) Enfield like they carried. Very accurate out to 500+ yards.

I think once I get back into it, it will again become second nature. It has been about 10 years since I have shot black powder.

I think with my boy we may start with a .32 Squirrel rifle to start. I think this is small enough caliber that we can put it together with little fuss and just hop in the truck and go out plinking or get some rabbits. If my son seems like he is getting into it then we can start looking at other calibers and builds.

Like with most things I dive head in but want to make sure my boy likes it. I suppose I am looking at a justification for a new one for me but I have to keep perspective that this is for him. :wink:

Again thanks for all the suggestions and I am sure I will in the future be looking at some custom builds or myself or someday doing them myself.

 

[cynthialee]

I grew up shooting BP pistols with my dad. It was fun and I remember those days fondly. We never shot a HC/PC gun, and I am pretty sure I have never even held a properly HC/PC gun to this date and I still love shooting BP and remember those days shooting with dad with a fondness.

You son is not going to care if the guns are historicaly acurate. All he is going to care about is getting time to shoot with his Pa.

If'n it was me...I'd get some second hand guns. That way you could get more than 1 or 2 and there could be choices thus piqueing his interest even more. If there is one thing I have learned from hanging with the boys: if one gun is cool, two guns is awesome, and three guns is beyond the best.

When he is a bit older and can truely apreciate it, then I would start thinking about selling off the old teaching rifles/pistols to bank roll the purchace of a fine rifle.

 

[Col. Batguano]

+1. Does he like to shoot? If you don't know, I'd start him out with a Daisy Red Rider, and then move him up to a pump action .22, like a Rossi clone of a Winchester 62. As much as we love our charcoal burners, they are a bit of a chore when compared to the aforementioned.

Build? With a 12 year old? It conjures up images of my Pinewood Derby experiences with my sons. They tired of the tedium of most of the project, (try getting a 9 year old to sand something for an hour) and after a few years of "assisting" them with their cars, I came to dread every spring. I got sick of the Pinewood Derby after the first 5 of them, and building 3 cars each year.

If it's going to be HIS gun, I would buy a relatively cheap and indestructible gun first. One you won't have a heart attack over if it gets wrecked. Once he wrecks it, and laments the loss, he'll take better care of the next one (maybe). :wink:

 

[arizona_brigade]

Yes we are going to get a beginner gun first. The build part is for both of us and I am sure I will do the lion share of the labor. I guess the build is to wet my feet personally with kits and building. I am not worried about it getting knocked around or field scars. My CW black powder rifles, especially my main one, ended up with many of field scar on the out side but mechanically and the bore were well taken care of.

He has shot modern rifles with me many times. We went on a javelina hunt earlier this year and he shot my lever gun. He has shot my .22 many times and has even shot my 12 ga shotguns. I have an old bolt action .22 we are going to refinish and it will be his when we are done. His interest is there in shooting.

For me personally historic black powder was always there since I was very young. But I grew up visiting my families stomping grounds of Mississippi, Arkansas & Louisiana touring CW battlefields as a very young boy. My son is more interested in the Revolutionary War period more. Unfortunately he has become very obsessed with shooting video games which have now been confiscated. This is in hope to extract him from virtual reality into Physical reality and the outdoors. Should have never allowed that in the first place.

Hopefully he will end up with this picture below in his imagination. I often imagined myself on the mississip' reading Tawain's books as a kid.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I guess then the question is going to be; who is the kit for, and to what purpose? If for educational and "can see the light at the end of the tunnel" purposes, then get a true kit. One of those 20-30 hour jobs like a Lyman or GPR. You will be spared most of the "thinking and figuring part" of a build with those.

In most guys' full parts' sets builds, for every hour you spend doing, you spend an additional hour or two thinking about what you're going to be doing, and where.

 

[buzz]

Agree get a simple kit 20-30 how gpr or simular
After a week or so you both be out making smoke

 

[William O.]

Goggle Mike Lange muzzleloaders and give his western trade rifle a look, and you could also pickup at a reasonable price one of his "rugrat" guns for your son.

I was going to suggest doing just that, as one of Mike's specialities are his rugrat rifles. http://mikelange.homestead.com/index.html
If his designs don't do it for you and you have the skills to sand, blue or brown the metal parts is getting an "in the white" rifle, which will save you some money. I've got an early Virginia "transitional" rifle from TVM, 50 caliber flintlock which give me a fairly wide time period in which to choose my persona, 1770's up through the early 1800's. You might also take a look at what Pedersolli has in the way of rifles. You can always put together a Lyman GPR kit and have money to spare for your son's rifle. I've seen many GPR kits that have been customized and they always turn out nice.

 

[arizona_brigade]

I appreciate all the feedback here. I do have a specific historic time frame I am looking at. This would be specific for my area Gadsden Purchase are in the 1850s. I am looking for a PEC long arm for the period I am in. There are a couple advertisements of the period that someone brought to my attention a while back. One of them references a "North-West" Gun. There were some Indians tribes that were locally traded with as well. Here are some ads from 1859:

Advertisements from The Weekly Arizonian, printed in Tubac.
July 7, 1859
____________________________
Colt's Navy Six-Shooter Pistols.
For Sale by
White & Grainger,
At Fort Buchanan.
____________________________

White & Grainger, at Fort Buchanan, have
for sale, Rifles, Double-Guns, "North-West"
Guns, Powder, Lead, Ely's Caps, Shot, Gun-Wad
ding.
____________________________

PISTOLS AND CARBINES.
A Supply of Colt's Navy Pistol, (new
pattern,) Also, Pocket "Six Shooters," together
with a number of six barrel Carbines and five-
barrel Rifles; FOR SALE at the Store of Sonora
Exploring and Mining Company, Tubac.
Frederick Hullseman
store keeper

-----

The advertisement at the tops mentions a "North-West" gun. I imagine this had gone through some evolution from the typical ones we seen offered by builders. Would these have been percussion? Would they still have been a smooth-bore?

I ran across this a while back that seems to be of the time period I am looking at as well. Note that most seem to be half stock plains rifles. I find particularly interesting is that one of the last maker son this list shows them being Kentucky pattern 1#1-#4 and all of them are half stock.
http://www.texasguntrade.com/texassportingrifles.htm

Anyway for the time period I am looking am I best off with a plains Rifle or a percussion trade rifle, or some mid 1800s version of the Kentucky Rifle in percussion or altered to percussion?