Questions on getting started the right way (.54 Hawken)

[WNC]

I just drug out a TC Hawken .54 that belonged to my dad and gave a good cleaning. I'd like to start working up some loads for it after I get my Lee RB mold and I was wondering what the min. and max loads for this thing are?
I don't have any sort of owners manual for it, so I was hoping someone could suggest a good way to get this thing up and running. I currently use a .32 using patched RB for squirrels and such, so patches, etc are available. I plan on using Pyro R/S, but not sure as to the weight of the .530 RB.
Glad to finally have found this forum. Lots of good information.
Thanks in advance

 

the weight of a .54 round ball will be in the vicinity of 230 grs. Mostly depending on the purity of your lead and the temperature at which you pour. I use .530 RB in my two 54's and a good starting load would be 60 grs. of FFg. My hunting load is 100 grs. of FFg and it is suprisingly as accurate as the lighter load tho doesn't shoot to the same point. Some will offer that 100 grs. is too much but I like it and it works. As with any firearm you should experiment and see what works best in your rifle but that should be a good starting point. Good luck and keep us informed!

Vic

 

[roundball]

Glad to see another TC Hawken fan...I use them in .45, .50, and .54 calibers, both percussion & flintlock.

If you call TC Customer Service, they'll mail you a new manual at no charge...it's called:
"Shooting Thompson Center Black Powder Muzzleloading Firearms"...and it has a whole set of load data and ballistics for several calibers and projectiles for TC Hawkens & Renegades.
The .54cal load data chart shows:
Lowest load listed: 60grns FFg (RS)= 1263fps
Max load listed: 120 FFg (RS) = 1983fps

With my .54cal Hawken percussion, I used 70grns Pyrodex RS or Select for targets, and 120grns for hunting...both are extremely accurate, using Hornady .530" / 230grn round balls and TC .018" prelubed pillow ticking patches.

Since switching to TC Hawken Flintlocks, I use 60grns of Goex FFFg for targets and 90grns for hunting...(same ball & patch...)also extremely accurate, and drops deer in their tracks.

Enjoy !!

 

[WNC]

Soon as my RB mold gets here, I'll start working on those loads.
Thanks for the information. Very much appreciated.

G

 

[musketman]

GREG:
You want the powder to "PUSH" the projectile the whole length of the barrel.
If the powder charge is consummed completly before the bullet/ball exits the barrel, then the pressure will drop off, drag will occur and velocity will decrease.

When ball shooting, recover spent patches, this will tell you what is going on inside the barrel.

If the patch is burnt through, then you may be burning too much powder, not enough powder and the patches will look too clean.

The patches should look blackend with soot stripes from the riflings showing.

I was burning through patches with my .75 caliber using FFFg (it burned too fast), I went to Fg and the barrel was too fouled (burned too slow), FFg was just right.

FFFg has been used in .58 caliber muzzleloaders with great results by famious hunters like Val Forgett and George Nonte.

They used 180-200 grains of FFFg and a 610 grain minie ball in a .58 caliber, 9 1/2 pound Hawken style rifle.

All of the powder was consumed within the 26 inch barrel.

 

[Zonie]

quote:They used 180-200 grains of FFFg and a 610 grain minie ball in a .58 caliber, Yes, it may have worked fine but the key here is the 610 grain minie. The heavy minie will accelerate slowly giving that much powder the time it needs to burn.
IMHO loading more than 120 grains behind a round ball is a waste of powder, even in a .58 cal. That's because the light weight ball (about 290 grains for a .58) will accelerate fast enough to be clear of the bore before all of the powder is burned.
IMO While loading over 120 grains of powder creates an impressive ball of fire, it doesn't add any usable velocity to the round ball.

I also can't help but think that loading 200 grains of FFFg behind a 610 grain bullet is going to produce VERY high breech pressures. I would suspect they are beyond the "dangerous" limit unless the gun was designed to use that load.
You will understand I'm sure, when I say I don't want to stand within 40 yards of that gun when it's being fired.

 

[musketman]

LOL, I didn't say I would shoot it either.

The minie-ball was a special design for Africa's big game. (Cape Buffalo, Elephants, Hippo, ect.)
Val Forgett and George Nonte did this back in 1973.

And of course, a round ball will require less powder to accelerate to it's optimum velocity.

 

[roundball]

Another thing good to remember is to be sure to specifically clarify the brand of powder being referred to when comparing load data, powder charges, etc.

This is a wonderful sport/hobby and is rich with common practices and time honored principles handed down for generations...but we also need to think about today's changing environment... some of them may well have been true 'way back when' but possibly not under our circumstances today.

For example, after shooting and experimenting a while we all get a general understanding of the max load thresholds of powder with certain projectiles for certain calibers...
But...that's usually based upon using the main couple of black powder brands like Goex or Elephant that have normally been available for a long time.

HOWEVER......things change......and along comes "Swiss" powder which is extremely fast compared to Goex or Elephant and all those generalities that we thought we knew as absolutes about max loads go right out the window.

Swiss is so much faster that the max charges we thought were safe now have to be significantly reduced to avoid excessive pressure spikes.

...and to say nothing about 'smokeless powder' muzzleloaders now creeping into the picture.

So if you're not getting load data from a printed manual somewhere that has all the info right there, be sure to ask / clarify which powder was used for a given load suggestion as you must not assume...you must know exactly what you're pouring down that barrel.

IE: my hunting loads are 90grns Goex FFFg but that doesn't mean 90grns of Swiss FFFg or anything else is necessarily a safe, direct substitute...just some thoughts

 

[Deadeye]

I have 4 .54s 2 flinters and 2 percussions. I regularly shoot them in matches and use 60 grs. 3f as a match load in all 4. I have shot up to 160 grs. 3f but past 120 you don't get much velocity for the amount of powder and 100 grs. is really plenty for most hunting.
Deadeye

 

[WNC]

I've always read that 3fg built up too much pressure for use in a bigeer bore rifle. Maybe the writers were just covering their back side by saying this for liability reasons.

 

[Deadeye]

Re the 58 cal. I have a friend with a custom Hawken with a 1" Sharon 32" barrel. His hunting load or for long range targets for at least 20 yrs. has been a RB and 200 grs. of Goex 3f. It may be that it all doesn't burn but it's very accurate and I've chronographed it at over 2100 fps. For 25 yd. targets he uses 25 grs of the same 3f. I've shot it with the 200 gr. load and recoil wasn't that bad. I have a rifled .75 cal. Hawken that shoots a 600 gr. ball and over 200 grs. of 2f will give some serious recoil.
Deadeye

 

[Darkhorse]

If you can get your hands on the old Lyman Blackpowder handbood, they go into some detail about the benefits of using 3F over 2F. They also include some velocity comparisons between the two. This was the main reason I decided to try 3F in a .54. Every other thing I had read said to only use 2F.
Another thing I noticed was that the Lyman velocities listed were a good bit lower than the ones in the TC manual. Even with the longer barrels.
Thats just another good reason to own your own chronograph.

 

[Voyageur]

quote:Originally posted by musketman:
And of course, a round ball will require less powder to accelerate to it's optimum velocity. I guess I missed this earlier. A Minnie/Maxi/Buffalo bullet requires more powder to reach it's optimum velocity?

 

[musketman]

A round ball weighs less, and it will achieve more velocity than a bullet will using the same charge..

"IF" the optimum velocity is 1450 fps for both rb and bullet in this hypothetical muzzleloader, than the rb will achieve this with only 50 grains of FFFg, whereas the bullet will require around 85 grains of FFFg to do the same optimum velocity.

from Lyman black powder loading book:
A .54 caliber round ball with 50 grains of FFFg will yeild 1445 fps....
A .54 caliber T/C Maxie ball will require 85 grains of FFFg to achieve 1435 fps.

So more powder is needed by the heavier bullet to get the same velocity as the round ball, assuming the optimum velocity is the same for both projectiles.

That's all I mean...

 

[Voyageur]

quote:Originally posted by musketman:
"IF" the optimum velocity is 1450 fps...So more powder is needed by the heavier bullet to get the same velocity as the round ball, assuming the optimum velocity is the same for both projectiles. That's all I mean... Sorry musketman, what I was thinking is that the 'optimum velocity' for roundball and bullet will almost certainly not be the same. By 'optimum velocity' I was thinking of 'optimum accuracy' too. If the 'optimum' velocity/accuracy for the roundball exceeds 1800 fps the Minnie won't even be able to compete.

I guess that's why they went to the sabboted bullet...to get the flatter trajectory we enjoy with roundballs.

 

[WNC]

"A .54 caliber round ball with 50 grains of FFFg will yeild 1445 fps....
A .54 caliber T/C Maxie ball will require 85 grains of FFFg to achieve 1435 fps."


Musketman...Could you give me the min. and max. load in a 54 caliber using FFFg and a PRB? Still have quite a bit of FFFg left and would love to try it

Thanks for the info

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by greg:
Could you give me the min. and max. load in a 54 caliber using FFFg and a PRB? Be happy to Greg...

Loads are for a 28" barrel...
(I also have data for the 30", 34" & 43" barrel if needed, let me know)
FFFg GOEX black Powder
.535 round ball and .015 tick patch.

40 grains -1061 fps
50 grains -1125 fps
60 grains -1250 fps
70 grains -1375 fps
80 grains -1453 fps
90 grains -1531 fps
100 grains -1605 fps
110 grains -1678 fps
120 grains -1730 fps (MAX T/C LOAD)
130 grains -1782 fps
140 grains -1895 fps
150 grains -2008 fps

I think T/C only recomends up to 120 grains max, what I quoted is from the Lyman Black Powder book.

This does not mean your muzzleloader could shoot 150 grains just because there is data for it...

Please follow your T/C guide, if you do not have one, contact T/C Arms and they will send you one...

http://www.tcarms.com/

 

[roundball]

Whoops...I think you meant to say:

FFg.......not FFFg

TC's manual lists loads using FFg, and they're in reference to Goex FFg and Pyrodex RS/Select.

 

[musketman]

I know that, I was quoting Lyman's black powder guide...

You are right, T/C loading guide is FFg...

I should have stated that, wait, I did...
But for safty sake, T/C's is FFg.

 

[roundball]

My mind must be going...all I see on this end is FFFg

Wonder if all of the Lyman data was actual tests conducted or if the high end was extrapolated?

150grns of FFFg would be something...I use 90 as a hunting load and it's robust !